Just had a thought? CFMoto Charging Problems By JR (Read 17,638 times)

[JR]

Thinking outside of the box is what it's all about TV!

I even mentioned somewhere in all of this about the possibility of combining two R/R's and even a 4-pin and a 7-pin. If the white will handle the fan and the red the battery and the rest of the scooter then use the 4-pin one one leg just for the HID's?

The trail tech R/R won't work it's single phase and these are 3 phase stators unless you just ran it off of two legs? But as you mentioned what kind of load can these stators handle?

Also what is peculiar about the readings on you 11 coil stator with this same 7-pin R/R is the fact that the 11 coil stator from what I can find is 135 watts? One would think Jalat's 18 coil stator would be stronger, I at least did but now I'm thinking it doesn't have near as many windings as the linhai?

Losts of guess work and where did you get your 7-pinn R/R from? I know the man on Sdawg got his from PFS so they might be able to get some specs on it? The same could be asked for Scrappydog?

At this point unless it can be dually combined to run two R/R's I'd say a stator re-wind upgrade is the only answer, more wires on the coils = more amp output.

And testing would be great John would hate to see you burn up your stator so if I did it I would fuse the wires to stop a meltdown should it try to do just that!

So that raises the question of what is your R/R set at?

[cruiser]

The Honda Helix stator is rated at 240 watts (about 20 amps). This is what our 244cc engine is supposed to be a clone of. So, if the dimensions are the same, we have a quick and pricey (about $150) answer to the low charging problem. Of course, you have to ensure that the regulator is up to the task which could involve another $100. Anyone know the dimensions of the Honda Helix stator?

Another question - do any of our vendors know the rated output of the stators they sell? Do they have a 240W stator for the Cfmoto clone?

[JR]

Good question Cruiser. But if the clone that is in Jalat's and your scooter is rated any where near 240W then it should handle this with no issues at all. Also we know Damin tried a better R/R and still couldn't make a go of it so my thought is this stator is no where near 240W? The 6-pin R/R could handle that if it was rated high enough.

I'll see if anyone can answer the watt question.

JR

[JR]

Ok I just emailed 3 suppliers I know that sell this stator and hopefully they can get us an answer plus two of them sell this stator for the ATV's also and sometimes they will have a heavy stator for them because of large lights that people want at night? We'll see if they can get an answer?

JR

[tvnacman]

Well lets have roast stator it seems to be the only way to find out .most of my parts come from CPW , they have no clue what they sell , its mere part numbers . I was thinking about taking 3 100w builbs and connect to each of the yellows and the other side to ground .
John

[abscooters]

Whatever Honda specs are, thats what the clone specs are, I don't know, I don't rarely test anything. When something doesn't work I take one off the shelf and plug it in. Out of the many many 250's with electrical issues I have serviced, only a couple ended up being the stator.

The majority of the charging issues with these china machines is what they plug into it outside of the motor. The MC-54 (cn250 long case) honda reflex copy has known charging issues, usually it is the radiator fan. It charges at barely a volt over battery voltage(another common Honda design flaw) and then when the fan kicks on, it runs at a volt under battery voltage. Then if you got cooling issues, fan is running way more than it should, or they have too low of a fan switch temperature, it runs too much, draining the battery while riding instead of charging.

I had one in here last month that I had to build a complete harness for, something got fried somewhere. The owner tried regulator & diode. I tried stator, ended up being a short in the wiring harness.

I have also seen the MC-13 Bali 250's be the brake light switches stuck on. I have found that running a little higher gauge red wire from the battery side of the charging diode(usually the red wire) directly to the battery terminal helps kick up the charging by a quarter to half a volt (alot in Honda engineering tolerances).

[cruiser]

Thanks for the input, Dave. It looks like even though we have plenty of output, we are losing about 50% through the wiring and connectors. Also, the low starting voltage output of the R/R isn't enough to overcome the voltage drops in the scoot's wiring and we eventually end up with a discharging battery.

There is a possibility that the 7 wire R/R that Jalat tested was the limiting component even though it started with good voltage readings. The readings could have dropped because the R/R wasn't designed to supply enough current for this application. This brings us back to the OMP R/R which can supply more output than the stator can input to it. Even when using the OMP unit, the voltage will eventually drop too much when trying to use a reasonable amount of power. Sounds like we need to overhaul the wiring with heavier wiring and better connectors - something that JR has always advocated.

Still suspicious of the stator. We know that the replacement R/R's are not all the same quality and I wonder if this is true of the replacement stators?

[JR]

Going to agree with you Cruiser on what you just said but I'm not buying the 240 watts on this stator. You add up the amps Jalat is trying to use and even drop high amp saving LED's in there to milk every watt of voltage you can out of it and the total does not add up to 40 amps, no way! Remember he even plugged in the 1.3 amp lower draw fan and the two HID's were a no go.

Also he doesn't even have the diode in this system so he's not losing voltage there either.

I think either R/R would supply the output if the input was there to start with?

JR

[tvnacman]

gee after sleeping on it , I think I will go with 60w builbs first , then if it works I will go to 100w builbs .
ABS is on to something , I just ahve not spoke about it . Wire size has plenty to do with it . For example the 7pin regulator the wires on it feel like 12 or 14 awg the wires on the scooter harnes , 18awg or could be smaller . Before or while I was doing the stator upgrade I pulled a few extra wires across the frame 10 and 12 awg , for future use . I noticed that some of the wiring in the harnes some of the larger wires were fed by smaller wire .

John

[JR]

I changed the wiring to my fan a long time ago which with my scooter is the big draw other than the standard head lights. If I rode at night any I would upgrade to HID's or go with a 45W bulb and yes upgrade the wires. With the other lights upgraded to LED's the wire size is not a issue but all of the crimp on connectors are thus that's why I soildier it all.

When I changed the fan wiring along with giving the fan some much needed lubrication I dropped the amps on it from 4.45 to a nice 2.75.

That is another issue on the fan the bearings are extremely difficult to lubricate. One can spray a nice silicone grease on front bearing by removing the fan blade and the back one by drilling a tiny hole in the back housing. My fan was actually screaking from dry bearings.


If I had this version of the scooter I would trash the fuse box and rewire all the main charging circuits, get rid of the diode, put a low amp fan on it and put dual radiators on it. I would also have a R/R built for it rated at 16.Vdc to get all the stator would give along with a 12 to 14AH battery.

Lastly if I wanted HID's badly enough I would pull the stator and have it re-wound to at least 300 watts.

JR

[jalat]

JR that all is so much to do that it would be better to buy linhai version at the first place. Much easier now when we know all this

Just one HID light makes a really really big change compared to stock bulbs. So this setup really is good enough. Hot grip heaters plus one hid plus cooling fan running.

[tvnacman]

Ok guys I see on the fourm the bright headlights are very important , I the past I have over looked the need for HID's . I live in NYC there are street lights in the streets and on the hwy . I remember a few weeks ago I was out of state and there were no street lights on the hwy or in town . My cage has HID's and what a difference . My daily cage does not have HID's after driving with them its hard not to .

John

[abscooters]

There are 2 different fans. The one that has the Y type mounting, those ones are good. Then there is the square ones that is usually in the MC-54 reflex copies, those are the ones that most often pull too much voltage. They are often in the linhais too, but they can handle the higher wattage fan.

And lighting is the 2 35w headlight bulbs, Their 3-5w counterparts (I forget why they even install these, something to do with a real old DOT or EEC lighting requirements), the 2 5-8w tailight bulbs the half a dozen 3-5w dash and marker light bulbs, not to mention when turn signals and brake lights when on. Tailight bulbs are 5-8 watts on the dim element and 21 watts on the bright one. And on all the dc stuff, you have to consider voltage drop on that skinny ass 18-22 guage wire, not to mention what it loses getting rectified and regulated. I don't know what it takes for sparkplug ignition, but it seams to come out of the same ciruit, unlike the GY6 setup where it is usually separate.

Out of all the Bali MC-13 with the shortcase, Y-type fans and less lighting I have hardly ever encountered a charging problem, when I have it is usually a failed diode or brake lights stuck on. The MC54 that usually has more dash & marker lights the voltage chewing DC fan, longer main harness, a clock and usually a radio, I have had a ton of charging issues. The manufacturers must know this, cause they often have a trickle charger installed as standard equipment in hopes of having the battery absorb the brunt of it.

Yes the linhai has a much more stable charging system, kind of funny they usually use the same regulator but a smaller plastic diode. Amazing what an extra 100 watts will do. I don't know if the CF-motos spec out to 240W, but I'll bet they are damn close if not correct. Who knows on all the replacement stators running around, look the same in the box, LOL.