Just had a thought? CFMoto Charging Problems By JR (Read 17,664 times)

[JR]

Today I just can't wait the moment I get back to home

Me either! I'm also thinking that we may have options for the white wire should the voltage hold stable. Again if both HID's with the fan running hold 13.5Vdc or better and we still have good volatge on the white wire then we could just put it on the autochoke or maybe a new set of grip heaters?

If I remember you changed to the lower amp fan at about 3 amps and if the white wire will handle it then great but if you got some better grip heaters at a lower amp rating you could use it for that also?

Again we'll know the options after your tests.

JR

[jalat]

I did not change that lower amp fan. The original fan used 3.7 amp when I checked.
I bought that Silicone itake systems low amp fan but did not put it on yet. That low amp fan used 2.3 amp when I tested it directly to battery.

[JR]

Well that's right at 1.5 amps saved which on a scooter is a lot. The linhai fan uses 2.75 amps stock and I've heard some say the Moto version uses up to nearly 6 amps! ouch! But your fan even at 3.7 is bearable.

You just came up with another idea! You could take this fan and hook it right up to the white wire! Pull the fuse to your other fan so it won't come on just don't let your scooter get hot!

Take voltage readings with it hooked up. Have it ready and do it with the scooter cold. Man this is getting more exciting by the minute!

JR

[jalat]

Oh boy what a job. Took all day but now it is done. The results are not so good

I think now it is proved that there is no possibility to make working combination with 7 wire R/R to give enough charge current while driving with both hid's on and when cooling fan is on. Even that I have replaced all bulbs to led-bulbs. Or even when one would change cooling fan to that Silicone Intake low amp cooling fan. There is not enough current to get you to the positive side.

How ever... even with stock R/R there is just enough charge to use one hid + grip heaters HI-position + cooling fan. With that combination I get 13.1-13.3V when idling and more when driving.

I believe it is time to give up and just dream about two hid's. Positive thing is that I always have spare bulb with me while driving If first one dies I just turn switch on and another one is on. Eventually one hid is good enough. Two would be ultimate but one is really good. It gets darker every morning and every morning when I ride to work it amaze me more and more.

Here are the results.



JR you can take copy of this result table and create a pdf file if you want. This might be a huge favor for other people in the future.

[JR]

Yes Jalat this is disappointing but I studied the charts well and on all occasions we proved the white wire could hold it's on.

I would not blame you if you said no but one quick question? Is your HID lights hooked up to the battery and of course I'm sure you use a relay? Also by what you said you can turn them totally off, one on or two on so how much trouble would it be to hook up the HID's to the white wire?

We know that the white wire will handle the nearly 3 amps of the fan, question is can it handle the watts of your HID's? I presume you are using 35 watt bulbs?

Since they are on a switch it wouldn't hurt them because you only have power on the white wire with the scooter running so you could turn them on then.

Again if you said I'm done I would for sure understand.

JR

[tvnacman]

gee , I wonder is the problem the stator is not outputting enough acv or is the r/r beond its max output ?

[JR]

IMO I believe it's the stator? Cruiser and I visited about this today and from everything we've ever found or gathered it appears the stator even though 18 coil like it's sister the linhai is weaker and that would more than likely be from less windings than the linhai.

But as in all of these systems it's output on the DC side is going to be the R/R's set maximum output. Most of the R/R's you read about for these scooters are in the 14.5 Vdc maximum range and if all is well with a fullu charged battery they will charge at around 13 to 13.5 volts and shunt the unneeded voltage to ground.

In this case with his intial reading yesterday it appears that the white wire is rectified to DC and regulated only by the output of the stator by the rpm's of the engine or by what the black wire senses it needs to put out? As you can see by Jalat's readings the white wire is still holding the needed voltage to run the fan even though the red wire is down and not capable of keeping the battery charged with both HID's on.

So it now seems that the stator is actually the downfall of this charging system but it would be interesting to know if the white side is stout enough to handle the HID's?

[cruiser]

Jalat, thank you for your exhaustive work on behalf of all the Cfmoto scoot owners and others who are interested in this problem. If you noticed, I did not show too much enthusiasm for the outcome of this mod.

The reason for this is based on the OMP R/R mod done by Todd (aka Damien) and Matt (aka yoster). Although they were happy with the OMP R/R, they were still not running a full load all the time on the charging system. It seems that while the charging voltage was improved for most of the time, they were still not running both headlights all the time and they were also trying to find ways to limit the cooling fan operation in order to save power. I believe the stator did not have enough output amps to maintain a proper charging voltage out of the R/R when the full electrical load was applied. The OMP R/R is easily capable of handling the full output of the Cfmoto stator, but the voltage will drop because of the limited output of the stator. I believe this would happen regardless of what R/R is used.

There is a possibility the problem can be attributed solely to the stator. Scoot owners who have the Linhai engines don't seem to have charging problems. The only difference electrically between the Linhai based scooter and the Cfmoto is the stator.

[JR]

As much as it hurts to say I believe Cruiser to be right and my hopes was that with an additional leg (white wire) that by removing the fan off of the circuit for the battery and HID's it would balance out the load and do the job.

Since I had this R/R I still believe I would put it to use and use the white wire for either the fan or grip heaters?

JR

[jalat]

Sept 22, 2011 15:59:04 GMT -6 JR said:

I would not blame you if you said no but one quick question? Is your HID lights hooked up to the battery and of course I'm sure you use a relay? Also by what you said you can turn them totally off, one on or two on so how much trouble would it be to hook up the HID's to the white wire?

We know that the white wire will handle the nearly 3 amps of the fan, question is can it handle the watts of your HID's? I presume you are using 35 watt bulbs?

JR

Yes my HID lights are hooked up to the battery and I use relay. And for another light there is a external switch. I don't believe the white wire can handle the load for two HID light. And because of low wattage it might even blow the ballasts.

Let's calculate

Original current draw with stock setup:
- head lights 2*25W
- registry plate light 5W
- small driving lights in front 2*3W
- gauge bulbs 3*3W
- indicator lights under the gauge 3*1,4W
- back lights 2*5W
- stock fan 3.71amp = 44,5W
totally = 128,7W ~ 10,7 amp

with less amp mod (estimated watt values for leds)
- HID lights 2*35W
- led registry plate light 4,5W
- led small driving lights in front 2*2W
- led gauge bulbs 3*2W
- led indicator lights under the gauge 3*1W
- led back lights 2*3W
- Low amp fan 2.33amp = 27,96W
totally = 121.46W ~ 10,1 amp

As you see with led mod + low amp fan + 2x35W HID lighs the total current draw should be a little bit (0.6 amp) lower than with original components. There should be no problem with battery charge after this mod. In my calculation above I even might have put too high load for led bulbs. But still that led mod wattage is lower than stock.

BUT... when people talk about HID lights that they only takes 35W each that is not correct. HID bulbs might take 35W plus the ballasts take also about 10W per each.
You can see it for example in here (lowest multimeter)


So real led mod calculations should be more like
with less amp mod (estimated watt values for leds)
- HID lights 2*35W
- HID ballasts 2*10W
- led registry plate light 4,5W
- led small driving lights in front 2*2W
- led gauge bulbs 3*2W
- led indicator lights under the gauge 3*1W
- led back lights 2*3W
- Low amp fan 2.33amp = 27,96W
totally = 141.46W ~ 11,8 amp

Now depending ballast load (10-15W) the led mod current draw is 1.1 - 2.5 ampere more than with stock setup.
That is why led mod + low amp fan is not enough

So I don't believe there should be any reason to even try to connect HID lights to the white wire. HID lights needs about 7.5 - 8.3 ampere and if the white wire is always almost as low as 12.7V when stock fan is replaced with low amp fan (see my result table) is that 12.7V enough for HID lights? If ballasts does not get enough current they keep noise and might blow up. Soon you will drive without lights. I think HID's should be connected to the battery in every case.


And if I use led mod + only one HID + stock fan it takes totally 110W which is less than stock 128.7W. With grip heaters added it is totally near 135-140W which is little less than with led mod. With grip heaters on, one hid light on and cooling fan on charge gets just under 13.2V when idle. But with a little revs it keeps it over 13.2V which is good.

So cfmoto can handle about 130-135W total current load with idle. And maybe 135-140W while driving. It is not that much less than with two hid lights on without grip heaters. But too much still. There is no place where one can save more current. Except by removing all led bulbs but is that good enough. Or is that even smart anymore.

[JR]

Jalat you are miscalculating the LED lights, I can tell you from experience that they draw a lot less than your figures, there are lots of sites on the net that give there specs as far as draw and it's so small that it's measured in milliamps most of the time. I know on my bali 150 I gained over 1 amp extra voltage with just the LED change out.

You scooter has two 5w tail light bulbs = 0.83 amp and I can tell you with the right LED bulb you can pick up 0.50amp here easily. When you apply the brakes that equals 20W = 1.66 amp.

With you low amp fan you are gaining 1.38 amps and say if you find some grip heaters at a total of 20W = 1.66 amp the white wire should handle the fan and heaters with ease?

Now on all of other bulbs it is just like my scooter for a total of 34.5 W = 2.875 amps. So if you replace all of them with good quality LED's you could gain say 1.5 amps?

So if this is so and can be done then you could drop the amp load according to your firgures from 11.8 amps to 10.3 amps?

I will be home after while and will look up some bulb comparisions and we'll put exact numbers to it. Remember every littl bit helps.

Also LED's handle the higher current well have never blown one even on my 250B linhai which has more amp output.

JR

[jalat]

JR you can try calculate how much total amps are when used two hids, low amp fan and all other leds. Let's forget the heated grips at this point. If you can calculate less than that stock setup 128,7W ~ 10,7 amp then how it is possible that 2 hid's with cooling fan puts charge less than 13V.

Use this as a template:

with less amp mod (estimated watt values for leds)
- HID lights 2* ...W
- HID ballasts 2* ...W
- led registry plate light 1* ...W
- led small driving lights in front 2* ...W
- led gauge bulbs 3* ...W
- led indicator lights under the gauge 3* ...W
- led back lights 2* ...W
- Low amp fan 2.33amp = 27,96W
totally = ... W ~ ... amp


And you can use these led bulbs for your calculations. All of my bulbs are from ebay.

I have used those bright smd leds everywhere.

gauge lights, registry plate light, small driving lights at front are these W5W bulbs
imagehost.vendio.com/a/16952174/aview/T10-1210-4SD-2.jpg

led indicator lights are like these W3W bulbs
.sixity.com/images/008001369unpackaged.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.sixity.com/images/008001369unpackaged.jpg

led back lights are like these
peraccurate.myweb.hinet.net/images/CM130/PB-CM130R-1156.jpg

don't calculate the load what break bulbs need when breaking. Because the problem is when you are driving normally.


Tell me what is your calculation and then let's compare it to stock setup load.

[JR]

Ok here is a place where you can get the watt ratings and such on their LED bulbs, take the 3W wedge instrument panel bulb on our scooters.


.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2F74-x.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2F74-x.html

3W = 0.250 amp. They have a good wedge LED for this application rated at 17 mA = 0.017 amp. That's 0.233 amp saved x 3 = 0.699 amps gained.

Also you are wrong on the little front side running lights if it is like mine those are 5 watt bulbs. With the right bulb you could be a lot brighter and maybe gain over 0.5 amps.

Here is the bulbs I used for the side running lights, very bright!

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2pcs-168-194-CN-1W-High-Power-LED-White-Wedge-Bulbs-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26ituQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d5Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d2982346412618405929QQ_trksidZp5197Q2em7QQitemZ200655076251


I will do a total breakdown and we'll see what can be gained!
JR

[JR]

If you can calculate less than that stock setup 128,7W ~ 10,7 amp then how it is possible that 2 hid's with cooling fan puts charge less than 13V.

Very good Question

So let's try to add this up and see what we think we can come up with

I do believe there are 4 instrument panel bulbs ( are on my scooter) all rated at 3W each = 12W = 1A

Two side running lights wedge type , mine were 5W each = 0.83 amp

Two tail light bulbs = 10W = 0.83 amp


One license plate bulb 5W = 0.42 amp

Now I still have all the old bulbs from my 250B so I went out and did a amp load test on the 3W wedge buls with a good hot 12 volt battery and it pulled 0.21A = 210mA.

BTW I use a quick online calculator to do the figuring for me!

.convertunits.com/from/milliamps/to/amps" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.convertunits.com/from/milliamps/to/amps

It's the lazy way just put in the numbers! ;D

So now figuring all of this on my scooter we have a total of 37W = 3.1A.

Now just for argument sake lets say you have the same bulbs but all of your wedge bulbs (don't count the tail light bulbs) are 3 W so the would be a total of 31W = 2.58A

So how much can we trim off of this number? I found simple wedge instrument light bulbs a 17mA so lets use them in the instrument and licence plate light for a total of 85mA. Now for the side running lights let say we want a bright bulb and we can find one at 25mA = 50mA total.

Now on the tail light bulbs here is some specs on some of them:

.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&category=CAR&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2F1156-x18-T.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&category=CAR&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2F1156-x18-T.htm

On the 1157-R18-T bulb it pulls 35mA on the tail light side X 2 = 70mA = 0.07A

So now for a total

We have a total of 180mA = 0.18A So 2.58A - 0.18A = 2.40A saved. and that's a lot!

Even if you used higher rated bulbs you still should be able to save around 2 amps?

Now on my Bali 2 amps is tremendous and since I changed them I have even with a oil cooler electric pump had a dead battery.

On my 250b my thing was not amp savings as much as it was LED's for brighter = safer.

Now here is another thing I've always said makes a difference on a nominal charging system and it's the battery. Most of these scooter come with at best a 9AH 150CCA or so rated battery.

I put a jet ski battery on my 250B it was the correct size but rated at 14AH 210CCA and when fully charged it will read 13.0 to 13.4 Vdc and IMO a hot battery will keep the amps going to the things you need and not all to the battery.

Also at 14AH it means that even if you are on the border line sometimes you'll have a longer reserve of power by it's rating.

So in trying to answer your question IMO if you change these bulbs and can't raise the charging voltage to the battery above 12 Vdc then the stator is not even rated at the 135 watts you mentioned but maybe in the 120 watt range?

I have no doubt that this 7 pin R/R would work just fine on the linhai version with your lights and grip heaters both on.

JR

[tvnacman]

ya know , being that we have no specs on the stator or regulator . I remember when I was in school doing work in the lab , as time progressed so did the experements with more ckts . the power supply had a voltage adjustment (we used 5vdc) and kept the current adjustment as low as posable . I remember as we connected more ckts we would have to increase the current . We saw this in the voltage dropping , it was being loaded down , even if we increased to voltage adjustment it did not come back up , increase the current the voltage came back up . With this said , I know I have said this before could we be exceeding the max current of the seven pin regulator .

2nd veiw
splice the 3 yellow and green off the stator use another 7pin float the black and white connect the red to hid , think outside the box . I don't have HIDS but I do have a 6 and 7pin 3phase regultato I have no fan . I imagine the stator would cook or at least get warm . but the extra current the stator would feed if i'm correct would be only be during electric fan operation .

I;m will to donate a regulator to the cause or willing to play with mine . I would just put a 100w light to the red on the second regulator and connect another 100w the the battery . Gee will I have roasted stator ( I would probe current from the stator ) .

I'm just thinking outside the box , I would talk to trailtech and ask them what the max current output is on there regulator . Once you get too or exceed the max the voltage will get loaded down .
Feel free to tell me to go to my room now .

John