The Ethanol Debate, Oh yes you have? By JR (Read 2,156 times)

[alleyoop]

We do that routine as well we fly to Vegas about 4 times a year, we fly out Friday morning stay 3 nights in Vegas drop a bundle then fly out of Vegas to SAN FRAN, rent a car and drive down 101 down to Monterrey and we stay in Carmel for a week. We also drive up to Wisconsin on the Indian reservation their casino is just like one of the fancy ones in Vegas. But there we just go for the day and come back winners or losers(HAHA).

So concerns about gas we don't even think about, doesn't even come into the picture. You want the car to run you have no choice so why worry about it.
Alleyoop

[JR]

Sept 8, 2013 20:35:22 GMT -6 alleyoop said:

We do that routine as well we fly to Vegas about 4 times a year, we fly out Friday morning stay 3 nights in Vegas drop a bundle then fly out of Vegas to SAN FRAN, rent a car and drive down 101 down to Monterrey and we stay in Carmel for a week. We also drive up to Wisconsin on the Indian reservation their casino is just like one of the fancy ones in Vegas. But there we just go for the day and come back winners or losers(HAHA).

So concerns about gas we don't even think about, doesn't even come into the picture. You want the car to run you have no choice so why worry about it.
Alleyoop

You want the car to run you have no choice so why worry about it.


I don't worry about it, I don't like it, there's a difference and it's not just related to you driving a car. There are people even in this country that don't own or drive a car, example elderly people who use the senior citizens buses and such so fuel is no concern to them, but food is.

My grandmother before she died drew $625 a month in SS. We all pitched in and took care of any of here needs that she didn't have the money for. She passed away in 1998. Now there are people now on the minimum like she was and today the minimum is around $680 so picture how that is for these people.

Sadly I know people like this that have to choose between their monthly medicine and eating.

So when we think more of making a buck to put a food source in a gas tank, pay the BS oil companies to do it and then raise food prices all in the name of it's better for us is the crap I'm talking about. When you raise fuel prices, no matter if you can afford it which you and I can, you raise prices on something as simple as a roll of toilet paper, a box of cereal and the very T-bone that others wish they could afford and eat hamburger when it's on sale.

You and I remember a time when it wasn't like this, yes I'll do what others do but they can't make me like it and for sure they can't make me believe it's better. .jr-richscooterdoc.com/XsmileP/X22.gif" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.jr-richscooterdoc.com/XsmileP/X22.gif [/img]

JR

[alleyoop]

Yea we know all that, just look at the price of a gallon of milk Everyone knows the gas companies have us all by our hairs. There is no reason for the gas to be so high and we all know it. The poor excuses they us as to why they raised the prices is just full of it. What gets me is we are subsiding the oil companies UNBELIEVABLE. They are making TRILLIONS of dollars in profit but they all know their days are numbered so they want to get it now before the oil days end.

My take on the Earth warming is this:

What does oil do to for our cars and scoots(THEY HELP COOL BY TRAPPING THE HEAT).

Well all these DECADES of pulling out the oil from way under the ground and rocks now the hot earth mantles heat escapes directly up through the top layer and is warming us up. There is now a lot of oil layers sucked dry and or at very low levels and our cooling system is disappearing.

And the US knows it, why do you think we are storing billions barrels of oil underground here in the states. They know the oil around the world is fast being depleted and it soon will be gone. Then we will be the only ones with oil to run our machines and can charge whatever we want to anyone that wants oil. The problem will be the other countries will most likely attack us for the oil. It is a mad world we live in but thank god I will be long gone when that time comes.

Everybody is looking up saying the polution BUT NOBODY is looking down, THE PROBLEM IS NOBODY CALLED ME
my .02
Alleyoop

[wolfhound]

;o DX

[wolfhound]

I filled up my 170i today, it is finally getting broken in, fill up @ 52 miles=1/2 gallon. Do the math! I fill up at home and carefully measure the amount of gas
used ;-X. o))

[bobf]

I guess I must disagree with the oil companies overcharging. Oil at the wells is not as great as oil at the pumps. Without the government meddling with our oil supplies it would be a lot cheaper. Wells capped because some politician said so, not because of any faults at all. Many oil men went out of work when our current government too over and started applying nonsense rules and applying ridiculous fees and taxes, A neighbor of mine lost his job in western Colorado, traveled around to several states doing short time jobs. Spent time in the Mississippi river area and recently made it back to northern Colorado. Much of this jerking around was due to the twisted minds of our government.

Our gas should still be in the less than $2 range. All this high prices stuff is to satisfy bureaucrats whims, nothing to do about life quality or safety. Though many say those are the reasons for doing things and making those laws.

Seen the newer cars that so many think we need. Not large enough for a family or carrying travel stuff like suite cases. I wonder how their safety numbers will end up. They do not look big enough to be as safe as the full size cars like all makers were making. The big guys that GM, Ford, Chrysler were making till recent years. I have always driven full size cars, mostly used cars. I bought them with about 40 to 50 thousand miles on them. Always enjoyed them and drove them to 110 or 130 thousand then traded.

My very first car was a 8 cylinder 1937 Packard 120D four door, 2 fender mounted spares, luggage rack on rear. I paid $100 for it in 1950. Wish I had kept it as it now is worth a lot more.

Well, anyway, the high cost of oil is not the scarcity at all but a result of dumb politicians and their biased and distorted ideas.
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[wolfhound]

DX DX

[bobf]

Here is a recent article about the ethanol mistake in the US and how it is destroying our economy while taking taxes from us to do so. This ethanol effort is a big mistake of our governments over several years. It should be stopped soon. But too many politicians are using this and other methods to control and rob all the people of the US.

I added the bold to some parts I find interesting. It is a man made cost added on to our lives and is producing little, if any, improvement to our lives and welfare. It is a misguided effort by our governments and should be dropped or modified soon.

fuelfix.com/blog/2011/05/13/corn-based-ethanol-the-real-cost/

Corn-based Ethanol: The Real Cost
Posted on May 13, 2011 at 11:19 am by Michael Economides in General


It was supposed to be the fuel that could wean, at least partially, the United States and other petroleum importing countries from their dependence on foreign oil.

Corn-based ethanol was heralded to do the trick and with massive political support from both sides of the political spectrum, it has emerged as the biofuel of choice, anointed by the United States government and enjoying the support of agricultural lobbies and states.

Ethanol, added to motor vehicle gasoline, is a great oxygenate and can stretch gasoline supplies blended from 10 to 85 percent, by volume. (Note that 1.5 gallons of ethanol are needed to replace one gallon of gasoline on an equivalent energy basis.) The ability of ethanol to stretch the gasoline stocks is the reason it was supposed to provide a measure of energy independence from imported oil. In addition, it is �renewable� and it evokes credits in net CO2 emissions because of the photosynthesis during the growing of corn. In theory these are all positive things; in reality the situation is quite unattractive if not outright catastrophic.

First, the net energy ratio of corn-based ethanol (useful energy divided by the energy required to produce a unit of ethanol) is at best 1.25 but in practice a lot worse. Some have calculated a ratio less than one, meaning that it takes more energy to produce ethanol from corn than the energy content of the fuel.

Because of very large government subsidies (see more below) the growth in corn-based ethanol has been nothing short of meteoric. From 2000 to 2010, ethanol production in the United States from the fermentation of corn, increased from 1.6 to 13.2 billion gallons per year. In 2011 this is expected to grow to almost 14 billion gallons. Congressional mandates have decreed that by 2022, biofuels blended into the US gasoline pool will increase to 35 billion gallons per year.

Thanks to considerable improvements in productivity for corn and other crops, US planted land has decreased by 39 million acres since 1980 from about 356 to 317 million acres, an 11% decrease. Corn�s share increased from 23.6% to 27.8% (88 million acres) displacing 13.4 million acres of other crops (about 5.9% of the other crop total). Most of this crop displacement by corn (5.2% out of 5.9%) has occurred since 2003. Without the dramatic improvement in corn productivity from 91 bushels per acre in 1980 to almost 165 bushels per acre in 2009, the displacement of other crops by corn would have been much more extensive.

Which crops are being displaced by corn? Food crops, animal feed crops, as well as cotton are all have experienced decreases. Since 2003, corn acreage increased 12.2%. Over the same time period:

Wheat acreage decreased 13.7%
Sorghum acreage decreased 42.6%
Hay acreage decreased 5.5%
Cotton acreage decreased 18.6%
Barley acreage decreased 46.3%
Oats acreage decreased 31.7%

The farmers are just responding to the economics of corn. High gasoline prices drive ethanol prices up and high ethanol prices drive corn prices up. With corn prices averaging $5.40 per bushel in 2010, farmers could bring in gross revenue of $756 per acre for every acre of corn they planted.

When cattle feed lots, poultry producers, and hog producers have to pay $5.40 per bushel for corn, is it surprising that food prices are increasing? The decrease in sorghum, hay, and oats acreage only makes the situation worse. With cotton acreage decreasing by 18.6%, why was it surprising that cotton prices went up 86% over the past 12 months?

The bottom line is the food versus fuel issue is very real and it will only get worse. To meet the 2022 mandate of 35 billion gallons of biofuels, if corn will be marshaled to fulfill the mandate (cellulosic ethanol does not seem to be doing any discernible progress) crop land dedicated to corn will have to increase from 88 million acres to 233 million acres, an increase of 145 million acres. That would increase the total crop land in the U.S. to 461 million acres, which is highly unrealistic because the most crop land that has ever been planted in the U.S. is 375 million acres (in 1932). If one assumes that crop land doesn�t increase above the 375 million acres, corn would have to displace 86 million acres or 37.6% of all other crops. This is above and beyond the crops that have already been displaced. Clearly corn-based ethanol is not a sustainable solution for the US energy needs.

The rest of the story is even more unsavory. US taxpayers are subsidizing corn-based ethanol and as a direct consequence food and clothing prices go up.

In 2000, fuel ethanol used 5.9% of the U.S. corn crop and corn was priced at $1.85/bushel. In 2010, fuel ethanol used 38.4% of the U.S. corn crop and corn was priced at $5.40/bushel. In late April of this year, corn futures were over $7.60/bushel.

The total crop used for corn-based ethanol in 2010 was about 4.77 billion bushels and 13.2 billion gallons of ethanol were produced. This means 2.77 gallons of ethanol are produced from each bushel of corn. This is a widely accepted number in the industry. At the current corn price of around $7.00 per bushel, just the corn feedstock cost for corn-based ethanol should be about $2.53 per gallon. On an equivalent energy basis, the cost of the corn feedstock for corn-based ethanol is $3.80 per gallon of gasoline. This doesn�t include the cost of production of the ethanol, the cost of transportation, or any other cost besides the corn. When the other costs are added in, corn based ethanol is a money losing proposition.

But it does not end there. Robert Bryce wrote on April 29, 2011 in the Energy Tribune.:

�Last year, the Congressional Budget Office reported that the cost to taxpayers of using corn ethanol to reduce gasoline consumption by one gallon is $1.78. This year, the corn ethanol sector will produce about 13.8 billion gallons of ethanol, the energy equivalent of about 9.1 billion gallons of gasoline. Using the CBO�s numbers, the total cost to taxpayers this year for the ethanol boondoggle will be about $16.2 billion.�

Summing up the incremental impact on food prices and the direct government subsidies, the use of corn based ethanol costs the country perhaps an incremental amount of nearly $4 per gallon, doubling the cost per gallon in the portion that is ethanol compared to petroleum based gasoline.

Corn-based ethanol has evolved into the least attractive of all energy ideas of the day.

Michael Economides is Editor-in-Chief of the Energy Tribune

[wolfhound]

DX

[JR]

It's not going to get any better. (*

JR

[bobf]

It will if enough folks realize just how bad the people are getting treated with our current elected. Time to replace most with new faces and hope they will be much more reasonable about letting the people run this government as they did so successfully prior to the 1970's. We have a completely out of control government any more. We don't need all these government controlled handouts to the people. We need the opportunity to direct our own lives and become wealthy or poor by our own decisions. Everybody leveled to the same level by government actions is not good at all. Much of Europe is a good example of how not to run countries. They are in bankrupt countries, heavy into unemployment, have small homes or apartments to live in, live on government allowances. Where are their freedoms? Just the way our recent governments, and most severely the current one, have been directing the US.

The dead horse is our government and we need to keep poking at them and hope they will wake up and listen.
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[wolfhound]

;o DX

[tankrider]

Here in the Boise, Idaho area the amount of Ethanol in the gas is 10%. The only stations that don't have Ethanol in the fuel is at the Phillips 66 stations of which there are only two of them in the area. The octane ratings here are 87, 89, and 91. I ran my 2006 Tank on the 89 octane (with the ethanol) for 7 years without problems. Of course I change out the chinese fuel filter and all hoses as soon as I got it.

[richardthescooter3]

I use my 250b scooter just about year round, and haven't had any trouble with the Ethanol issue, but I do use sea foam every now and then. When I cleaned my carb most of my jet holes were shut, but I don't know because that was the first time I cleaned the whole carb since 2011 when I bought my scoot