|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 10, 2015 12:18:21 GMT -6
A new observation. I was not even thinking of my heat gaug as it seldom ever changed much. I just now went out to run the engine again and was looking at the gauge. The gauge would act randomly from bottom of scale to over half way up and lower or bottom again. And as I played with the throttle the gauge acted independently from my throttle settings. Not sure what that indicates to be the problem. I don't know where the gauge sensor is located either. Possibly the thermostat opening partially or not opening at all maybe. I have located a place to buy the thermostat maybe. Not sure as they advertise for CF 250. My scooter is MC I think and that may or may not be a problem. If you link to the vendor you can see the thermostat and sensors at over half way down his items. .scrappydogscooters.com/CF250_Water_cooled_parts.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> .scrappydogscooters.com/CF250_Water_cooled_parts.htmlCF250 thermostat The thermostat is the heat controlled valve in the coolant system that allows the engine to warm up quickly and to maintain proper engine temperature. If this device malfunctions, the coolant cannot circulate and the engine will overheat. Common repair item for only $15.49 Outer Diameter (seal): 32mm, Thermostat Opens at 65°C (149°F) |
|
|
|
Post by ellpee on Oct 10, 2015 12:36:11 GMT -6
All true. Don't let the dashboard temp gauge and its associated sensor mislead you. ALL that sensor does is drive the gauge; it has no effect on fan, thermostat, water pump, coolant flow, etc. So you can be all good on the actual cooling system and still be getting bizarre gauge behavior.
FWIW, the sensor that drives the gauge probably screws into the engine block somewhere, cylinder head most likely, somewhere close to where the thermostat lives. Little gizmo with one or two wires leading to it. HOW it works is, it provides a variable ground for the gauge. Very little at first when coolant is cold, more and more and it heats up, causing the gauge readings to rise. Don't know what you meant by "act randomly," but normal would be, gauge reads cold at first, rises a bit as engine temp increases, on my Roketa at least it has never risen above the 10 o'clock position. If it doesn't rise at all, suspect a bad sensor. But if it moves up and down with no apparent rhyme or reason, suspect either a poor connection from the sensor to the gauge, or something hinky going on with the thermostat.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 10, 2015 12:54:30 GMT -6
My random comment was about the needle position. The needle would sit on the bottom or go up to about the 10 oclock position or then go up and down regardless if at idol or if I speeded the engine up. As I said also, I hardly ever looked at it as in the past it did not seem to rise much at all. Maybe then the thermostat was always open most of the time.
Did you take a look at the thermostat I posted a bit ago. Link to the photo and you will see it. Does their idea of CF250 really match our engines? I hope so as I can then just order one. While waiting for it to arrive I can do the wiring and remove the thermostat housing cover.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 10, 2015 14:28:37 GMT -6
Now trying to get the thermostat out so I can order the same one and put the entire scoot back together.
Well, so far I have drained enough coolant to be able to take the thermostat out. I have taken all the black internal panels out. I have removed some of the tubing and hoses. Now I find that to get to the bolts that hols the thermostat housing to the engine means removing the carburetor to get to these screws. There are two screws holding the lid to the thermostat housing but their heads are underneath, not sure I could get to them to remove and most likely not able to put them back together on the scoot. It is likely to be a long process till I get it all removed, part ordered and received, reassembled, and finally tested by starting the engine. This means that all things have been looked into and if nothing works, it will go on the block as a repair needed scoot.
I do appreciate all the help and ideas I am receiving as it helps a lot. And as much as anyone wanting to offer suggestions will be appreciated. Never again will I buy anything if their is no dealer or repair service for them.
|
|
|
|
Post by ellpee on Oct 10, 2015 14:56:51 GMT -6
Never had my thermostat out, or even had enough plastics removed to be able to see the housing, so can't offer much advice. Looking at your link wouldn't really tell me anything, although I do believe our engine is a CFMoto product, so the CF part is probably fine. Good luck, your mechanical savvy seems more than up to the job.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 10, 2015 15:15:07 GMT -6
Scoot all apart now and I have already ordered the thermostat. The dimensions they gave were the same as the one I took out. Not sure how fast this group ships. But I am hoping for some time next week. I will do the voltmeter wiring tomorrow. And may even take the new temp sensor out to test at the stove, just to make sure my next put it together is the last one. Or I could just put the original one in as it already tested good.
Sure glad I have taken so much apart as I now have a good idea how to do these things. Hope I never have to do them again. I think the gauge thermostat is the item in the top of the regular thermostat housing.
|
|
|
|
Post by ellpee on Oct 11, 2015 8:53:48 GMT -6
That sounds right -- has to be somewhere where it's in contact with the coolant.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 13, 2015 19:15:01 GMT -6
Monday email said part is on its way. No schedule yet but do expect it this week. It seems like this scooter place is one to use. They have good photo's and lower prices on the part I needed. .scrappydogscooters.com/CF250_Water_cooled_parts.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.scrappydogscooters.com/CF250_Water_cooled_parts.htmlWednesday update. Part ordered on Saturday afternoon and it arrived by mail this afternoon. I picked it up at the mail drop at 3:00pm. Looks good. So tomorrow afternoon I will start rebuilding the engine parts. Been a long time since I thought it was the thermostat. Took every thing else apart and no success. Now I am back to what I suspected in the first place. It took a while for someone to convince me there was a thermostat on this machine. It is well hidden between the carburetor and the engine block. I had to take the air system and carburetor off to get to it. Thanks to ellpee for finally posting a photo that showed it's location to lead me to it. Next post should be about success. |
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 15, 2015 17:04:34 GMT -6
Still no happiness in my garage. I put the new thermostat in, rebuilt the engine, carb, air path, wiring, hoses, and then started the engine. It ran for qiiite a while but no fan came on. The radiator was hot as could be but he hose on the left side to the top of the radiator never really got hot.
Now for the water pump. Maybe it is not working as it should. I took the cover off a while back and found the impeller to be captive, I could not pull it out. I could turn it a few degrees left or right. But that was all. How best to tell if it might be the water pump not circulating water as it should?
Beyond that I intend to try the wiring to make sure all connections are solid. None left disconnected. No pushed pins. Neither the fan came on nor the gauge worked. Both are located in the thermostat housing and cap.
I don't have the body panels on so some of those wires are not connected. I don't think the fan and lighting circuits are the same. Am I right on that assessment?
Back to work on this frustration tomorrow morning. It should not be doing this for me. New carburetor, new thermostat, still no fan. Fan tested with 12vdc and runs fine. It is getting cooler now and I should be able to ride without heat stroke. But it won't run.
|
|
|
|
Post by cyborg on Oct 15, 2015 19:13:04 GMT -6
See if you can get the gauge at least up and running ,you can always do a manual toggle switch for the fan worst case scenario ,,,
|
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 16, 2015 7:16:27 GMT -6
Sorry cyborg, I am a bit of a nut and want it right, not just a workaround. I spent time late yesterday and found a wiring for my style of scoot. I chased those little lines around and found two sets of lines for my scoot. One line goes from the thermostat housing direct to the gauge. The other is two lines from the battery ground (  , through the fan, next to the thermostat switch, a 10A fuse. I am well aware of that circuit, but know nothing about a 'thermostatic switch', so I go follow those wires till I find such a thing. Could it be part of the motor housing assembly? I will start looking after I wake up and have some breakfast. I will also check the gauge wiring too. At least it is cooler now. Not having those well into the hundreds right now. |
|
|
|
Post by ellpee on Oct 16, 2015 8:08:14 GMT -6
The diagram makes sense, except for the "through the fan" part. 12v goes to the gauge to do two things: power the little bulb inside, and power the needle (or LED display). so you have one permanent ground coming out for the former, and one variable ground (via the thermal switch) for the latter.
The thermal switch itself, at least on one of my scooters, almost looks like a wee spark plug; it screws into the engine somewhere, in your case apparently near the thermostat housing.
Hope that's of some help.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 16, 2015 10:27:24 GMT -6
Hello ellpee. Just came in from my incomplete circuit chasing.
I checked the gauge line and found no problems. I checked the fuse box and found the fuse for the horn etc to be poorly contacted as one of the contacts had pushed out the bottom. Rather than continue with the fan wiring I decided to run the engine. It did run, much better, and the gauge now show temps well up after running a while, but no fan starting yet. That gauge is a one wire run from the thermostat housing to the gauge.
Will continue next with the fan circuits, just not sure about that thermostatic switch. It may be on the motor, or close by.
|
|
|
|
Post by ellpee on Oct 16, 2015 11:26:53 GMT -6
Correct. Yeah, the OEM fusebox has a tendency to do that; I replaced mine early on, and relocated it so I didn't have to remove the battery cover every time I wanted to check a fuse.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobf on Oct 17, 2015 12:39:30 GMT -6
Well ellpee, how are you doing these days. Been a few since the mishap and hope you are healing well as time passes.
I still don't have a fan running on my scoot. Been a bit out of steam this week with some kind of bug. Soar throats, coughing, brain more dead than normal, almost constant sinus draining. Sure hope this goes away too.
Still no fan. I rechecked cable at temp sensor. I have 12vdc on blue cable when key is on. I also checked on motor cable where it is connected. Again 12vdc on a blue stripped cable. But engine not running. I will go out later and try some more ways of getting it to run, maybe. This is really confusing to me for sure.
I believe the wiring is OK. I shorted the leads on the temp sensor, turned on the key, the fan started to run. So 12v is brought to the sensor and with 12v leaving the sensor the fan work right through the cable harnesses.
I could not find the original one that I had tested in the pot on the stove, so I just ordered another temp sensor. Will find out later next week.
|
|
