No fire By snechovski (Read 4,382 times)

[fflintstone]

Well,I do get a little carried away sometimes when someone starts to flame our people on this forum after they have patiently tried to help time and again--I mean no disrespect to you snechovski when I say that our techs and other forum members have tried to help,and I mean to help as usual,by pointing out that if something was running ok before you tinkered with it,and now won't run at all,,then you must look at the part you tinkered with as the part that is the culprit--it is just common horse sense --and no need to get testy with people trying to help--the other guys are a little more easy going than I am I guess,but I mean to help where I can,so ,if you think we are picking at you and calling you stupid,you have gotten the wrong idea,so,get to it and let's fix the thing--

[snechovski]

Jr I mean no disrespect to anyone for that matter, but when we keep going round and round about something that is just a freak incident then we're gonna get no where. Now that being said I'm telling you guys I did not unhook or knock anything loose on this thing other than the plug wire. Unless I'm totally blind after I don't know how many days of looking then I did it I'm guilty. Now, I know that if after all these parts I replaced and still nothing than its definitely in the wiring. But we're spending more time on saying things like, I quote,, (I'm telling you that you hit something or knocked something loose.) Ok, if this were true don't you think we should try and pin point the problem? A few post back we were checking the ac voltage on the pickup and we kind of left it at that. You guys said that it should read 0.5 to 2.5 mine read 0.353 at the harness and 0.253 at the cdi harness. Now to me that's off correct me if I'm wrong but we left it at that to argue about what everyone thinks I knocked loose. So one more time,, I appreciate all help that's why I'm here. I'm tired of bickering. So if you still want to help than thank you let's get this fixed. If not it's all good and thanks for going this far w/me.

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[snechovski]

One more thing, if I had a good wiring diagram I could probably tell everyone what wire is doing what but all I find is just color code schematics nothing with it telling me what wite is ground and what is 12v.

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[snechovski]

I'm gonna repost what the coil is doing again, OK brown w/ black wire - key off grounded, key on or turning over 9.7v Yellow w/black - key off ground key on 1.3 volts or turning over engine. That's with meter instead of test light.

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[alleyoop]

When you say coil, are you talking about the wire going to the coil from the CDI? That should register around 75+VAC from the CDI.
So what does the power wire from the stator to the CDI register? That should register at least around 40+VAC. If not the stator is not putting out. If it is then the CDI is not putting out.
Alleyoop

[snechovski]

Ok I'll check that, and also if there not right, would that cause the coil to get warm like it does when you leave the key on for about 5min.? Thanks.

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[alleyoop]

Jun 22, 2014 10:28:11 GMT -6 snechovski said:

Ok I'll check that, and also if there not right, would that cause the coil to get warm like it does when you leave the key on for about 5min.? Thanks.

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The reason it gets warm with the KEY on is because IF that is a TCI coil it is getting 12v with the KEY ON. Here is how a TCI COIL works:

[snechovski]

Ok, and when it starts does it continue to get warm or does it just get so warm and stay like that? I'm just interested to learn about it.. :

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[alleyoop]

Oh yes it will get warm that thing produces a lot of voltage to send to the plug and will be warm all the time your running.
Alleyoop

[alleyoop]

Put the meter on the wire going to the coil and see if it is getting 12v.
Alleyoop

[snechovski]

Gotcha,, thanks for that info.. I'm still not back yet to check those wires I'll post soon as.. Thanks

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[snechovski]

One more question, what's a tci stand for?

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[JR]

Jun 21, 2014 6:45:11 GMT -6 snechovski said:

One more thing, if I had a good wiring diagram I could probably tell everyone what wire is doing what but all I find is just color code schematics nothing with it telling me what wite is ground and what is 12v.

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.thescooterprofessor.proboards.com/thread/490/260-vog-wiring-diagram" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.thescooterprofessor.proboards.com/thread/490/260-vog-wiring-diagram

I'm going to send this link to you one more time, it has two VOG wiring diagrams that when you click on either one you can see, they are correct and have the color codes on them. Now it may be your phone thing because, you don't have a computer, don't know but don't mention not having a good wiring diagram again, this is a good one and it's now been sent to you 3 times.

Every single wire in the picture you posted of your TCI matches the diagram to the letter.

Transistor Controlled Ignition ( TCI )

TCI box exists to eliminate moving parts (breaker points and advance mechanism).

TCI ignitions are functionally the same as old vehicles with breaker points. It is just a modernized, solid state(transistors taking the place of the points and a logic chip replacing advance weights and cam) 'Kettering type' ignition.

The coils have full time (keyed) battery voltage to them. The pickup coil by the flywheel 'feels' the trigger bump go by and sends a signal to the TCI box. The TCI looks at RPM (using the frequency of the pickup coil's signal) and determines whether or not to advance the spark timing based on a pre-programmed curve in the logic chip. At idle, it is using the static advance that is determined by the flywheel key. When spark is needed, The TCI interrupts the batt+ to the coils and this causes the field in the coil to collapse. This, in turn, induces the secondary windings to dump and fire the plugs.


The logic chip in the TCI has only ONE variable to look at, and that is RPM as reported by the (single) pickup coil. There is NO throttle position sensor, NO gear position sensor, NO road speed sensor, NO ambient air sensor. It is what is known as 'single map, open loop' logic. The advance curve is the same whether you are revving to limiter in neutral, or you are in second gear dragracing uphill-which means a compromise has been made somewhere. The compromise was made toward the cleaner emissions end of the scale. This is WHY advancing the ignition with an offset woodruff key, or slotting the pickup coil gives immediate results.

CDI  stands for Capacitor Discharge Ignition

 

CDI works almost just the opposite as TCI. CDI ignition coils sit there, with NO voltage in the primary circuit, until the CDI sends a pulse of hundreds of volts through the primary to ground. That 200+ volts induces the secondary windings to dump and fire the plug. 

BUT, a CDI also has a set of condensers, which take the Batt+ and store charge, rapidly building to hundreds of volts. When the pickup coil sends a signal, the CDI's logic says 'when' and it dumps that charge of hundreds of volts through the coil's primary windings. CDI's have very high spark voltage compared to TCI, but CDI also has a very short spark duration.

CDI powered coils also can be used in higher rev situations because the coil isn't dependent on time to build up inductance in the secondary coils, it is amplitude dependent. CDI therefore offers consistent spark voltages as high as you want to rev.

TCI powered ignitions are dependent on time. The coil needs a minimum time to saturate to build full power in the secondary windings. TCI ignition spark voltages fall with revs after a certain point.

[JR]

Jun 21, 2014 6:40:29 GMT -6 snechovski said:

Jr I mean no disrespect to anyone for that matter, but when we keep going round and round about something that is just a freak incident then we're gonna get no where. Now that being said I'm telling you guys I did not unhook or knock anything loose on this thing other than the plug wire. Unless I'm totally blind after I don't know how many days of looking then I did it I'm guilty. Now, I know that if after all these parts I replaced and still nothing than its definitely in the wiring. But we're spending more time on saying things like, I quote,, (I'm telling you that you hit something or knocked something loose.) Ok, if this were true don't you think we should try and pin point the problem? A few post back we were checking the ac voltage on the pickup and we kind of left it at that. You guys said that it should read 0.5 to 2.5 mine read 0.353 at the harness and 0.253 at the cdi harness. Now to me that's off correct me if I'm wrong but we left it at that to argue about what everyone thinks I knocked loose. So one more time,, I appreciate all help that's why I'm here. I'm tired of bickering. So if you still want to help than thank you let's get this fixed. If not it's all good and thanks for going this far w/me.

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Troubleshooting is a process of elimination, test this, replace that. I gave you a list of possible items

Bad parts

Wrong parts

Bad wiring

Broke wiring

Shorted wiring

Now like anyone on what has or has not happened I'm not bickering and I'm making suggestions, if you don't like my suggestions or think I'm wrong no problem but I'm also applying common sense, scooter running, replaced carb, scooter not running, carb has NOTHING to do with ignition system, ignition system wiring runs by carb area and can be disturbed accidently when working on it. Whether you did or didn't doesn't matter it was a viable and reasonable suggestion, IT HAS happened to many including myself.

I have a 250A (wifes) that I replaced the horn on this winter, road the scooter the other day and temp gauge, gas gauge and tach are dead, hit a bump in the road and it'll work. I KNOW that the black wire that feeds them from the key switch is loose not only do I know that I'm going to get to take the whole damn front off of this scooter to fix it, didn't mess with any wiring except the horn, but it wasn't that way before I replaced the horn.

But we're spending more time on saying things like, I quote,, (I'm telling you that you hit something or knocked something loose.) Ok, if this were true don't you think we should try and pin point the problem?

You have a meter, YOU need to start pin pointing the problem a wire at a time, done replaced everything else and this is what you should have done to start with instead of just throwing parts at it. You've asked for and been sent a "correct" wiring diagram 3 times, use it.

0.353 at the harness and 0.253 at the cdi harness

Good enough for a TCI and since you replaced this before you checked the old one, you might as well swap the old one back and see if it's any better?

[JR]

Jun 21, 2014 7:02:38 GMT -6 snechovski said:

I'm gonna repost what the coil is doing again, OK brown w/ black wire - key off grounded, key on or turning over 9.7v Yellow w/black - key off ground key on 1.3 volts or turning over engine. That's with meter instead of test light.

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You do not have a CDI but rather a TCI and you also do not have a meter that can read the output voltage of a TCI.

To be exact TCI uses transistor switches to disconnect the coils. This causes a charged coil to collapse and "fire" the spark. This is known as "Kettering" or
"Induction" effect. So, in the VISION the coils are powered up all the time except while "collapsing" into spark. The VISION coils are constantly powered up
at 12+ volts but the "induction" energy stored in the coils secondary core is about 20,000volts.

Black/white with key on is 12Vdc+ and I would highly advise you not to try to test the output going to the spark plug at any time. Even if it is only putting out 50% which is not enough for the plug to fire 10k volts can kill.

To test a TCI:

Put spark plug in and ground it out to engine case.
 Set Run/Stop switch to STOP. Then turn ignition key to ON.
 Every time you turn the Run/Stop switch from OFF to --> ON you should see
a single spark about 2 seconds after power-ON.
If you do not see this spark then you have a bad TCI or wiring is bad.