Ice Bear Trikes in General By ellpee (Read 4,258 times)

[ellpee]

Was interested to read the most recent post about issues with the Zodiac. Shall not comment further.

Received new Magnum a month ago, without IceBear PDI. Lots of issues with dealer, but not (necessarily) with IceBear.

HOWEVER: bought Magnum for use at high altitude. My town is at 6900', my house at 7400', average operating environment between 4500' and 8500'.

Okay, so I understand the Magnum (and all its other same-engine clones) are probably set initially for the People's Republic of California. Great, I get that. So I've now been dinking around for a month trying to get the carb settings right for high altitude.

WHERE I STAND RIGHT NOW:
-- Starts OK cold, fairly well warm, so-so hot.
-- Power OK on the flat, but not much of that in our area. Bogs down to 30 mph or so on steeper slopes (7%+).
-- Gas mileage disappointing; appears to be 30-40 mpg at best.

SO, what should I think about all this? Is this the best I can expect from the Magnum (and its various IceBear engine clones) in my particular operating environment? I'm not a wheelie kind of guy, but if the above suggests my Magnum needs further tweaking and running it as currently tuned is going to create further problems, whould like to hear about it.

[alleyoop]

Are you sure it BOGS or Looses RPMS and POWER? Two completely different problems.
If it BOGS then that is because the carbs FUEL RATIO MIXTURE is not set right. IF it looses a LOT of RPMS and POWER going up a hill that is due to the wrong weights in your VARIATOR.

Do you have a TACH on the TRIKE? IF so watch your TACH going up a hill and or tell me what RPMS it runs at.
If you do NOT have a TACH on the trike I would suggest you get one , A tach is one of the most important instruments on a motor. With a TACH you can tune your motor and CVT without one it is a guessing game and or the person must have a damn good ear for motors.
If the trike does not have a tach I suggest you get one they are not expensive and I found this one to be really good and installs in 5 minutes.
Alleyoop

trailtech.net/tto_tach-hour.html

[ellpee]

To me, "bogs" and "loses RPM/power" is the same thing. If it isn't, guess I need further education on how to tell the difference.

No, came without tach, unlike my Roketa. Will consider buying/adding a tach, as what I've read about adjusting mixture always has to do with RPM. Others out there, any thoughts about scoots at high altitude?

[alleyoop]

BOGS is when your motor makes a SOUND BOGGGGGGGGGGGGG, IF it just slows down that is loss of rpms and power.

So now that you know that when a motor bogs it ACTUALLY MAKES A BOG sound.
Which is it?
Alleyoop

[ellpee]

I'd say it's losing RPM then. Haven't noticed any odd sounds from the engine. Will invest in a tach, I guess, so I can confirm that next time I take it up a hill. Argghhh, hate to think of having to mess around with the variator. Any thoughts about the poor mileage? My Roketa back in Tucson consistently gets around 75 mpg; the Magnum is almost twice as heavy and a bigger engine, but based on the internet specs I would have expected at least something in the 50-60 mpg range.

[alleyoop]

Yea they should get around 50-60 mpg, but if you have a lot of hills that you always climb that will suck up some gas and especially if it is wasting gas going up the hills. Remember you have the throttle open and it is loosing power BUT it is sucking in gas and wasting it.
Alleyoop

[rapidjim]

Aug 2, 2013 18:11:19 GMT -6 ellpee said:

Was interested to read the most recent post about issues with the Zodiac. Shall not comment further.

Received new Magnum a month ago, without IceBear PDI. Lots of issues with dealer, but not (necessarily) with IceBear.

HOWEVER: bought Magnum for use at high altitude. My town is at 6900', my house at 7400', average operating environment between 4500' and 8500'.

Okay, so I understand the Magnum (and all its other same-engine clones) are probably set initially for the People's Republic of California. Great, I get that. So I've now been dinking around for a month trying to get the carb settings right for high altitude.

WHERE I STAND RIGHT NOW:
-- Starts OK cold, fairly well warm, so-so hot.
-- Power OK on the flat, but not much of that in our area. Bogs down to 30 mph or so on steeper slopes (7%+).
-- Gas mileage disappointing; appears to be 30-40 mpg at best.

SO, what should I think about all this? Is this the best I can expect from the Magnum (and its various IceBear engine clones) in my particular operating environment? I'm not a wheelie kind of guy, but if the above suggests my Magnum needs further tweaking and running it as currently tuned is going to create further problems, whould like to hear about it.

Okay this helps explains more of what is happening.

To meet EPA standards, they are jetted
more or less for sea level, not so great at higher elevations like where you are. Less air causes a richer mixture. To see if this is what is going on with yours, remove the air filter element from the housing, and take a short ride. See if it improves. Then we can figure out the next step.

Another thing you can try is called a plug chop. Take a plug wrench with you. Let the machine warm up to operating temp, ride down the road at WOT, while at WOT hit the kill switch and coast to a stop. Pull the plug and see if you are lean or rich.

Hope this helps

Jim

[ellpee]

Thanks for the tips. And I'll know that by whether the plug is black (rich) or white (lean)? I can tell you right now that even after the recent mixture adjustments, when I come back from a lengthy run (30-40 miles) the plug tip is still quite black. Assuming I clean the plug well first, then do the plug chop thing, will I possibly see something different?

I will also try the air filter thing just to see what effect it has. Will disconnecting the air tube from the back of the carb have the same effect? If so, that's easier than getting at the air filter box, since I've cut a nice big access panel under the seat to make it easier to get at the carb.

[skyrider]

A customer of mine quite a few years ago who was an engineer with Wright aircraft engine told me that for every 1000 feet in elevation one goes up you loose 10% of your horsepower. That explains why my 28 hp Rotax powered ultralight had a practical service ceiling of about 7000 feet.
Using the same formula my Reflex, which Honda says is 19 hp, works out like this: at 1000 foot elevation it is 17.1 hp, 2000 is 15.4 hp, 3000 is 13.85 and so on until at Monarch Pass, that I went over a few weeks ago, I am down to 5.9 hp at 11,000. Actually Douglas Pass at 8268 was worse because of the extremely short hairpin switchbacks it was impossible to keep any rpms going and on Monarch I was able to maintain 40 mph or a little better.
The Reflex is a full 50 lbs heavier that the clones so that makes some difference but they are rated at less hp. Add the extra weight of a trike and guess what-- it makes even more difference.

[rapidjim]

[replyingto=ellpee]ellpee[/replyingto]If your plug is black after a run like that and was clean before, you are running too rich and may need to lower the jet size. Not enough air, check your air box for a restriction before you lower your jet size.

Jim

[ellpee]

So I'm looking at maybe needing different rollers/sliders in the variator, and/or smaller jets due to high altitude.

Continue educating me, please. First, where's a good place to shop on line for smaller jets, and how do I know what size to shop for?

Second, regarding the variator, I understand how a CVT works with belt drive -- rpm opens/closes the pulley to in effect shift down or up for current load conditions. My Magnum, though, is chain drive; how is that going to be different at the variator end? Will there be a sprocket rather than a pulley, and if so, how does it "variate"?

As to rollers, I just read in the 250 forum that for more RPM you go to lighter rollers, at the rate of about 1 gram = 500 RPM. That would seem to equate to more power on hills, like downshifting a manual tranny, but what's the tradeoff on the flat? Lower top speed? More/less acceleration?

[alleyoop]

Your Magnum HAS A CVT which has a VARIATOR and CLUTCH PULLEY. The CLUTCH PULLEY turns the gears that TURN THE SPROCKET on the other side which has a chain which in turn TURNS YOUR SPROCKET on the DIFFERENTIAL.
Alleyoop

[ellpee]

Ah so, I see. Thanks. Oh, wait -- so does that mean there is in fact a belt involved between the variator and clutch, even though the power eventually gets to the rear end via sprocket-and-chain? I suppose I could find out by just pulling the CVT cover, but I've got enough to worry about right now.

Things just keep getting worse. My last big run was a couple days ago, ran okay except for wimpy hill performance. Have tried to start the scoot a couple times since then, and it did start; only ran it for 30 seconds or so each time. Went down just a bit ago to try again, and it wouldn't start. Cranks strongly, spark is fine, new Iridium plug, but won't fire except maybe every 6-8 revs of the starter it sort of backfires -- not a large bang, just a sort of burp. I checked all the fuel and vacuum connections on the carb -- all good -- but I noticed that the throttle cable, which my guy had adjusted to remove excessive slack, had vibrated loose. Tried a start again while working the cable manually, same result, cranking but only an occasional "burp." Tried my luck at re-tightening the cable, but there's still slack even with the nut at the furthest possible position. (Can a throttle cable stretch?) I also removed the big hose from the air filter box to let the carb get more air, tried again to start it, same story, cranks well but only burps. So here I am again with a Magnum that won't start, and no way to get it down to a shop, and my confidence level in the shop I've been using is dropping by the minute. (They rent, and maintain, a small fleet of small scooters; one of only two possibilities in my town, and the other appears to be at about the same level of expertise.)

Trying hard not to despair, but this is becoming very frustrating. If I buy a can of what used to be known as "starter fluid" and spray some of it into the back of the carb while cranking, is that likely to help? If I can't get it to start at all I'm screwed with a capital S.

[alleyoop]

I have said many times the scooter shops do NOT have knowledgeable mechanics. About the only ones that do know what they are doing are your big HONDA and SUZUKI dealers that have a backroom. They will usually have ONE good mechanic and maybe one other that cleans them up and sweeps.

If you can take pictures and or VIDEOS and if you can turn a screwdriver and have some tools you are much better off working on it yourself with our help.

The Throttle cable at the handlebar SHOULD HAVE 1/4 of a inch of FREE PLAY. What I mean by Free play is when you gently turn it 1/4 of an inch it does nothing. Then twist it past that point and it ACTUALLY PULLS on the Throttle cable inside and opens the BUTTERFLY.

Alleyoop

[ellpee]

When the Magnum first arrived and I started looking at the whole carb thing, I noticed some slack at the CARB end of the cable, enough that I became concerned it could "jump the track" on the little throttle wheel or whatever it's called. That equated to maybe 1/4 turn at the throttle handle before anything happened at the carb end. (That's 1/4 TURN, not 1/4 inch.) At one point you showed me how to adjust that, but I didn't have a wrench that could get at the bolt, so I pointed it out to my guy and he adjusted it. Apparently, though, he didn't tighten down the bolts well enough, because 50 miles later they vibrated loose. I know IN THEORY how to handle that at the carb end, but even if I loosen the one bolt as far as possible, there's still slack in the cable at the carb end. Maybe this is a worry I should put on the back burner, as in almost 400 miles there hasn't been any problem I can attribute to the somewhat loose cable.

As to mechanic qualifications, this is a village of 10,000 we're talking about, so I don't have a lot of options. There's not even a real motorcycle dealership or shop, just the scooter rental place and a sort of scooter/cycle "junkyard" where they also work on them. My own abilities are modest, and my tool collection as well, though it has certainly grown since this episode began.

Pre-Bedtime Update: re-tightened the throttle cable at the carb end to be best of my ability -- had to saw a wrench in half to get at the nut -- and though there's still a wee bit of slack in the cable I'm going to ignore it. Also re-tightened the one bolt and nut holding the air filter box -- darn if it hadn't vibrated loose again despite Loctite. Looks like something I'll need to check regularly.

And then, the big one: screwed the mixture screw all the way in (clockwise), then backed it out exactly two turns. Tomorrow I'll put the nice clean Iridium plug back in and see if it'll start at all. If it does I'll follow Alley's detailed directions -- 1/4 turn at a time, stop and listen, lather rinse and repeat for optimum idle. Might squirt just a wee spritz of starter fluid directly into the cylinder before putting in the plug, I figure it can't hurt.

It sounds so RELATIVELY simple I'm ashamed of myself for being afraid to try it on my own. Of course if I had a tach it'd be easier, without one it'll all have to be literally play it by ear. That'll be my next move on EBay. I may still have to worry about high-altitude jets or lighter rollers, of course, but one demon at a time.