Turn Signals/Battery Problem By ellpee (Read 1,988 times)

[ellpee]

OK, so I got a generic 12v/30A relay (just noticed it actually says 60A on the casing, even better I guess), but don't know what to do with it and don't want to fry something experimenting. Problem is, it has 4 connectors and the connector to the blocking diode only has two. I have no problem adding wires and connectors and the like, but what to what to what? The flat connectors on the relay are numbered 30, 85, 86, and 87, which appears to be standard. From the how-to-replace-the-diode-with-a-relay PDF I know 85 goes to ground, 86 is 12v in from the ignition, and 30/87 are the two "legs of the diode." BUT I THOUGHT WE WERE REPLACING THE DIODE! Help, Oh Electrical Gurus! There were only two wires involved with the blocking diode, one of which I assumed was 12v from the R/R and the other was 12v out to the battery. The "ground," I imagine, was provided by the case being bolted to the frame, but that still leaves me with one more connector AND leaves me wondering if 12v from the R/R and 12v from the ignition are functionally the same thing.


MORE: just went out again and, using a separate 12v battery, hooked up various things in various combinations on the new relay. Hooking up to 85 and 86, in either direction, shows a constant 12v current flow. No combination I tried produced any kind of voltage at 30 or 87. I'm baffled.



BTW, my last post was a little bit tongue in cheek, but afterward it occurred to me that I rarely use the under-seat compartment for anything much, and with only a little bit of creative wiring I could very likely mount the relay, R/R, and CDI all under the seat, attached to some kind of plate and properly grounded of course, and getting to them in future would be a cinch. Any flaws in that thinking? Do they need more cooling/ventilation than that location would provide?

[bhinch]

Are you sure it is a 6 wire R/R. I have the 257/260 Yamaha ( Linhai )engine not the 244 Honda clone. Need to pull plastic and check your connectors to be sure. The blocking diode can be replaced with the relay and this forum has a tutorial for the replacement.

[ellpee]

Oh yeah, I've pulled the plastic and held the R/R in my hot little hands. Six wires, three yellow to one pigtail and red/green/black to a second pigtail. I got that PDF file from this forum, but the terminology confuses me.

#86= 12VDC FROM IGNITION #85 = GROUND #30=ONE DIODE LEG #87= OTHER LEG FROM DIODE

The blocking diode has only two wires, a red and a yellow; my assumption was that red is 12v from the R/R, yellow is 12v output to the battery when the blocking diode is closed, allowing current to flow. With the generic relay, I am totally lost as to whether and where those two wires connect, and what to do with the other two contacts.

[cruiser]

May 2, 2013 18:21:59 GMT -6 ellpee said:

Oh yeah, I've pulled the plastic and held the R/R in my hot little hands. Six wires, three yellow to one pigtail and red/green/black to a second pigtail. I got that PDF file from this forum, but the terminology confuses me.

#86= 12VDC FROM IGNITION #85 = GROUND #30=ONE DIODE LEG #87= OTHER LEG FROM DIODE

The blocking diode has only two wires, a red and a yellow; my assumption was that red is 12v from the R/R, yellow is 12v output to the battery when the blocking diode is closed, allowing current to flow. With the generic relay, I am totally lost as to whether and where those two wires connect, and what to do with the other two contacts.

With the relay, the blocking diode is physically removed from the scoot, so you will be connecting to the plug which was originally connected to the diode. It makes no difference how you connect to the relay as long as you use pins 30 and 87. Everything else is self explanatory. The headlights will come on with the key.

Mounting everything under the seat sounds OK in theory, but the R/R does generate a fair amount of heat and should have free air circulation. The CDI can also be heat sensitive because of the internal electronics.

[ellpee]

Sorry, no seegar. I just did the following:

1.--Unplugged the two-prong connector from the blocking diode and jumped it again with a wire. Even with key off, lights came on as before.
--1a: "Jumpered" same two wires with the voltmeter, got a 12.6 reading but no lights. Maybe that's normal, never tried it that way before. ??Voltmeter doesn't actually pass current, just measures it??
2.--Jumpered those same two wires to 30 and 87 on the new relay. No lights, key on or key off. Reversed connections, nada. Started the scoot briefly while in this mode, still nada.
3.--Thought maybe it needed a ground as well, so jumpered #85 to ground and repeated #2; same result, namely nothing.

So clearly this Sophomore is not getting it. Now wondering if the relay I bought at Radio Shack is even good -- any easy way to test that?

[cruiser]

Have you checked to see if you have 12 volts on pin 86 when you turn on the key? Pin 85 definitely has to be grounded. If those conditions are met and you still get nothing, then disconnect wires from pins 30 and 87. Set the meter to measure ohms (resistance) and measure across these 2 pins. You should get maximum resistance (open circuit) with the key off and a short circuit (zero resistance) with the key on. If that doesn't happen, then the relay is defective.

[ellpee]

I have a date with the dentist this morning, but after that I'll do the following based on your post (as I understand it):
-- jumper the two wires that used to connect to the blocking diode, red to pin 30 and yellow to pin 87
-- additionally, jumper pin 85 to ground
-- then turn on the key and check for 12v on pin 86
-- if no 12v on 86, I'll reverse the red/yellow jumpering and check again for 12v on 86
-- if still nothing, i'll remove the jumpers from 30/87, leaving 85 grounded, and do the ohm test across 30/87, ALTHOUGH if nothing is connected to the relay except the ground on 85, don't understand how key on/off can possibly make any difference.

If you (or anyone) happen to read this in the next couple hours and can clarify, it would be welcome.

THE RESULTS:

-- With red to 30, yellow to 87, 85 to ground, key on, no voltage on 86. reversing red and yellow, key on, still no voltage on 86. Key off in both situations, still no voltage on 86. (Jumpered red/yellow directly at the end to be sure, headlights went on with key off, so those wires are indeed "live.")

-- With both red and yellow DISCONNECTED from the relay, but 85 still to ground, set meter to ohms (200 setting), reading across 30<-->87 was OL or 0L, switching meter leads no difference, still OL. Turned key on and off, even though I couldn't see how that could have any effect, no difference.

-- Finally, just for yucks, hooked the relay up to a 12V marine battery, positive to 86, negative to 85, checked ohms across 30/87. For just an instant as I touched the probes to the contacts it showed a reading anywhere between 20 and 50, then dropped back and settled down at 0.1 ohms.

So I have no idea what I'm doing here. Unless somebody can explain this whole relay thing to me in kindergarten-level terms, I may just abandon it and stick with the blocking diode as designed. My replacement R/R is on its way, so knock wood, installing that will get me up and running again with a functioning charging system. If not, it's off to the mountains for the summer and I'll worry about it in the fall.

[ellpee]

Yeehaw -- hold the presses! After some further googling, finally figured out the relay, as follows:
-- red wire, formerly to blocking diode, to #30 on the relay -- steady 12v source even with key off.
-- yellow wire, formerly FROM blocking diode, to #87 on the relay.
-- #85 on the relay to ground.
-- at that point, connected #86 on the relay to the positive side of the scoot battery, felt it click, and the headlights went on even with key off, which I understand. Same as just jumpering red to yellow back in chapter 1 of this saga.

So I've now connected good ol' #86 to the "downstream" side of one of the fuses that feeds lights, horn, etc., so it will go "live" any time the key is turned on, but only then. Head/taillights go on with key turn now too, as expected. Wondering if adding the relay to that 10A fuse circuit warrants boosting it to a 12.5 or 15? Hard to work on that fusebox, very little slack in the wires.

Now if I've ordered the correct R/R, and that fixes the charging problem, ALL I have to do is put everything back together. While waiting for the mailman I'll give some more thought to my notion about putting the R/R and relay (and maybe even the CDI) in the under-seat compartment. Would involve extending quite a few wires and coming up with a suitable mounting surface. Still wondering if I'd be creating an overheating problem by doing that, but it's hard to imagine it could be any hotter than right down there by the engine and muffler.

[cruiser]

May 3, 2013 12:42:32 GMT -6 ellpee said:

Yeehaw -- hold the presses! After some further googling, finally figured out the relay, as follows:
-- red wire, formerly to blocking diode, to #30 on the relay -- steady 12v source even with key off.
-- yellow wire, formerly FROM blocking diode, to #87 on the relay.
-- #85 on the relay to ground.
-- at that point, connected #86 on the relay to the positive side of the scoot battery, felt it click, and the headlights went on even with key off, which I understand. Same as just jumpering red to yellow back in chapter 1 of this saga.

So I've now connected good ol' #86 to the "downstream" side of one of the fuses that feeds lights, horn, etc., so it will go "live" any time the key is turned on, but only then. Head/taillights go on with key turn now too, as expected. Wondering if adding the relay to that 10A fuse circuit warrants boosting it to a 12.5 or 15? Hard to work on that fuse box, very little slack in the wires.

Now if I've ordered the correct R/R, and that fixes the charging problem, ALL I have to do is put everything back together. While waiting for the mailman I'll give some more thought to my notion about putting the R/R and relay (and maybe even the CDI) in the under-seat compartment. Would involve extending quite a few wires and coming up with a suitable mounting surface. Still wondering if I'd be creating an overheating problem by doing that, but it's hard to imagine it could be any hotter than right down there by the engine and muffler.

All this info was covered in my two proceeding posts.

The danger of connecting to the "downstream" side of a fused circuit for this application is that you will loose your lights and charging if that fuse blows. You should be connecting "upstream" so that if one of the accessory fuses blows, you won't lose lights and charging. Could be catastrophic while cruising at night.

Also, could you clarify why you want to add another relay to a 10 amp circuit?

[ellpee]

The part that was missing from your previous posts, no doubt obvious to you but not to an electro-dummy like me, is that #86 had to be connected to SOME power source! All you wrote was to check it for 12v, and being clueless, I took that to mean one of the other three connections you specified -- presumably the red wire -- was going to somehow provide that voltage thru the guts of the relay. That's why I was puzzled at what possible difference turning the key on and off could make, since it wasn't connected to the relay in any way that I could see. I found a relay explanation with diagrams on line somewhere that was clearer than the PDF tutorial I found on this forum, and after studying that the little light finally went on over my head.

I see your point on downstream vs. upstream; my initial thinking was that having a fuse in the feed to the relay (#86) would be a good idea. I guess connecting it on the upstream side of the fusebox, but with an additional fuse in that lead, would be an alternative, or perhaps no fuse is necessary to protect a relay?

As to the last part of your post, I was concerned that "feeding" the relay with power off that particular fuse circuit, which feeds lights/horn/gauges I believe, would constitute an additional load that might exceed the standard 10A fuse and call for a somewhat heavier one.

Another idea that crossed my mind this evening is to replace the OEM fusebox entirely, with one that has at least one additional slot I could dedicate just to the relay. As many have commented and I have personally experienced, the OEM fusebox is less than great quality, and not all that easy to work on due to very little slack in the many wires. It would be a bit tedious to cut and re-connect all those wires, but might make my life a little easier down the road.

Really appreciate all the help and patience from everyone here as I flailed my way through this. Hope this and the new R/R will have me scooting again shortly.

[cruiser]

The first sentence of post #20 did ask if you had 12 volts on pin 86 when you turned on the key. In other words, did you connect a wire from a power line that is controlled by the ignition key?

Relays require very little power. You can put a 3 amp fuse in line to the relay if you want. All power wires that are controlled by the key are fused either by individual branch fuses (the fuse block) or the main fuse (usually a 15 amp directly from the battery.

Do not add a fuse downstream from another fuse. If you want to add something which requires a fuse, it should have it's own circuit and fuse. The main fuse is the only fuse which can have other fuses downstream.

Some guys have replaced the OEM fuse block with a better unit. Running an additional circuit through a new fuse block could be a little complicated. I would just do an additional in line fuse if you think it's necessary. I have no additional fuses on the #86 pin for any of my relays.

Sorry about the lack of clarity in my explanations. I try to be as short and concise as possible. I was an electronic tech in my other life.

[ellpee]

The first sentence of post #20 did ask if you had 12 volts on pin 86 when you turned on the key. In other words, did you connect a wire from a power line that is controlled by the ignition key?

See? Obvious to you, not to me; since the red wire to #30 had constant 12v, I figured that was somehow supposed to be making its way across to #86. Toldja I'm electrically challenged!

Regarding a new fuse block: if I opt for a new fuse for the relay, I should be able to just "split" the upstream connection on any of the three accessory fuses and run one side to a new fuse socket, correct? Or would it be necessary to run a complete new feed from the ignition switch all the way to the fuse box and then on to the relay? If the latter, it would definitely steer me away from the whole idea of a fuse for the relay. Based on your advice I'm not concerned enough about it to remove even more plastic to get at the ignition, etc.

As to your explanations, they've been great, you just didn't realize what a complete electro-doofus you were dealing with. As long as we're only talking hot/ground I'm okay, but anything with more than two wires or connectors blows my mind. Can't thank you enough for all your coaching.

[ellpee]

One thing leads to another. Since I'm grounded right now, I spent most of today constructing a sort of under-seat "equipment rack" to hold the new R/R when it arrives, a new US-quality fusebox, the relay I'm substituting for the blocking diode, and maybe even the CDI if there's room. Interesting exercise that will leave them all a lot easier to get to in future, simple but requires lots of focus. Which brings me to today's problem.

I disconnected all the wires from the OEM fusebox and carefully labelled them, A-1 thru D-1 for the upstream side and A2 thru D2 for the downstream side. Unfortunately, in the course of manipulating the wires a number of times, C1 and D1 both lost their labels. I put the voltmeter on all the 1's, and with ignition on/motor off, A1 (red, I think) reads 0, B/C/D-1 (all black) read 12.5 or thereabouts. (The R/R is presently completely removed from the scoot, sitting on my workbench.)

The positions and wire colors of the various fuses don't correspond particularly well to the YY-250T wiring diagram I found here somewhere, and the diagram even warns about that possibility. I'm guessing that A1-->A2--> is the one that feeds stator/RR current to all the lights when the scoot is running. My question/problem is how to correctly identify the unlabelled C1/D1, or whether I even need to. If B1/C1/D1 are all carrying 12v from the ignition switch, does it even matter which black wire (all three of those are black) goes to which accessory fuse? On the diagram it even looks like one wire from the ignition feeds all three fuses, though in real life that's not the case.

Since I'm re-wiring the entire fusebox, nothing would suit me better than if I could pick just one of the black wires and use it to feed all three fuses, but I don't know if that would create heat problems or other issues. So assuming it DOES matter and I DO have to use separate feeds for each fuse, what's the easiest way to figure out which unlabelled wire is C1 and which is D1? Or can I just connect any black to any accessory fuse and get on with it?

[cruiser]

There should be no problem with connecting the relay to the upstream side of any circuit controlled by the ignition key. It usually is the easiest way to find a key controlled hot wire. I was lucky enough to find an unused key controlled connector that I hooked up my relay to.

Should be no problem using one key controlled black wire to do the work of the other two. Heat due to excessive current flow is not a problem because the key controlled 12 volts has its own 15 amp fuse which determines the maximum amount of current that can flow at any given time. Remember that the headlight/taillight fuse is fed directly from the regulator/rectifier so don't hook that up to the key fed black wire.

We at USCOOT are here to help and are very happy when one of our members (students) can learn something new.

[ellpee]

Wunderbar. I'm going to take that, then, as (1) take any of the three black wires and it can safely be used as the feed for ALL THREE of the accessory circuits, OR (2) connect the three black wires any way I like to the three accessory-related fuses, all should be good as each of them carries the same battery 12v current by way of the ignition switch.. I actually have FOUR accessory circuits now as the new US-grade fusebox has a fifth slot that I'm using for the new relay-in-lieu-of-blocking-diode. But based on your previous advice about the primary 15A fuse taking care of business and the relay using very little current, I don't anticipate an issue there.

Yes, you are very correct, I have learned immensely with your help as I made my way through this mess. Of course the ultimate test will be if the scoot fires up when the new R/R arrives and I bring it on line, but I would never have arrived at this point without your help.

AND A JUST-BEFORE-BEDTIME ADD-ON: Just went out and jumpered various things to figure out what upstream fed to what downstream at the fusebox. Pretty much have that figured out, except that even with NONE of the fusebox leads connected, and the key turned OFF, I still see the clock still working, as if it's feeding off the main red-wire feed from the battery with no switching in between. Can that be? Looking at the YY250T wiring diagram it looks like the clock doesn't pass through any kind of fuse, but it does look as if it should only be on if the key is on. I'm sure it draws a negligible amount of current, and I'm happy if I don't have to reset the clock every other day, but I'd like to understand the electrical "big picture" behind this phenomenon.