Ignition ON = no electrical By HotStuff2 (Read 7,687 times)

[HotStuff2]

Been off the boards for a while due to my moving into my new condo and some other minor things, but finally had to come back. Unfortunately, it's with an issue. Here's what happened:

A week or so ago, I went to cut the motor off with the kill switch, and POP! The button literally broke off. I had to kick start it, but I got it running. After wiggling the now-broken switch around, the electric start finally started working - for a while. But then it died again, and no amount of fiddling would get it to crank up with the button. And having a bad lower back and hip, kick starting the bike is a huge PITA.

So yesterday I finally got around to taking the entire button assembly apart; even after trying to manually jumper it into the proper position, the electric start button won't work. So I'm thinking it's probably the starter motor or perhaps the starter solenoid that may have gone bad, no? (NOTE: The issue below was not happening at the time, but now it is.)

The other thing that was happening was that sometimes, when I would put the key to the "on" position, the clock would go off, and the electric start wouldn't work - it was as if the entire battery was disconnected. But strangely enough, a firm smack on the plastic right below the ignition switch would do it. Not sure those two are related, though.

So, am I correct in assuming that I probably need to replace the starter motor? Or is there something else I should be checking/testing? I've taken the headlight assembly apart, all the wires look right. Going to tear into the engine here shortly and see if there's anything else I might be missing.

This morning, I've taken the seat off, and traced the wires; everything looks normal. BUT, I'm back to trying to figure out what gremlin is causing the entire electrical system to die only when the key is in the "Start" position, as that's what it's doing right now. The clock goes off, thus I know there is no electrical; when I put the key in the "Aux" or the "Off" position, the clock turns on. Very strange. All the wiring looks fine; based on my being able to smack the plastic right below the ignition switch previously, I suspect that it's something in the front rather than under the seat. As to what that "something" is, however, I just can't figure it out.

Any ideas on what I should be looking for?

[justbuggin2]

i would pull the plastics off the front and check all the wiring around the switches and the handlebar switches then find and replace the fuse sounds to me you have bad connections and when the switch broke the fuse blew

[HotStuff2]

There are no fuses in the front. I've checked all the wires there, everything *looks* normal. I was thinking that it might be a loose connection, based on the fact that previously I was able to smack the plastic right below the ignition (which doesn't have anything in front of it, oddly enough), but I can't find any loose connections.

Also, previously this would happen when I was sitting on the seat, but if I stood, the issue didn't happen. So I was thinking it might be a pinched connection, but that would mean it was under the seat...except for the fact that I could smack the plastic right below the ignition and it would start working.

Very puzzling.

edit: also, the whole "ignition on = no electrical" was happening long before the switch broke off.

[godfeast]

Those ignitions can fail too. Im not sure how to properly check one, but it might not be a bad idea to swap it out.

[HotStuff2]

Yeah, I'm sort of leaning toward it maybe being the ignition switch. Which would explain why snacking the plastic "worked" sometimes. Now, for some reason, the clock is staying on when I turn the ignition switch to "On", but it dims. Guess I'll check prices on a replacement ignition switch.

[JR]

OK looks like you've got several problems and I'll agree with the others you've got to get the front off and lets do some tests.

The igniton kill switch usually is a 4-wire switch and it's a simple test. It should be the following colors:

red = 12Vdc from battery
black = 12Vdc output to accessories with keyn on such as brake lights, horn turn signals etc.
green = ground
black/white or even brown/white or possibly gray/white = engine kill wire to the CDI.

Generally all clocks I've seen run straight off of the battery which would mean it's hooked to the red wire before it gets to the key switch, the bang on the front sounds like a loose connection and could even be on the ground side.

Testing the key switch means using the ohms function on a multimeter and with it set on ohms with the key off put the meter leads on the red and black wire. You should read a open circuit or no continuity.

Now turn the key on and you should then read continuity or full ohms resistance.

Do the same with the green and engine kill wire whatever color it is. Put the leads on these two wires and with the key off you should get full continuity or resistance. Turn the key on and then you should read a open circuit.

Your broke engine kill switch is it a 3 or 2-wire switch? Got to remember the kill switch just like the key switch grounds out the CDI when engaged. So if it is touching a ground or as you say wired togetehr the scooter will not run, you'll have no spark. Totally disconnect the wires to it especially the wire (usually black/white) going to the CDI. If this wire is grounded out the scooter will not run.

Also pictures of the kill switch would be helpful along with how many wires and their colors.

We're here to help so keep us up to date.

JR

[justbuggin2]

the fuse will be close to the battery or under the seat

[HotStuff2]

I went ahead and ordered the new ignition switch and right-hand start / kill switch assembly, since I got frustrated and stopped working on it. Even tore my sneaker trying to kick start it.

But I'm going to pull it back up here today and try to use my volt meter on it as you instructed. I have to get this thing running, it's my only transportation.

It's not the fuse. That would also make the clock turn off, and of course I checked it anyway.

[JR]

You can also perform this simple test:

Unhook all four wires from the key switch
Make sure the green and the black/white kill wire do not connect to each other
Put a jumper from the red to the black wire.

Test your turn signals, brake lights anything else on the scooter that works with just the key on.

Now if your kill switch is a 3-wire type then you will have a

black/white = kill wire to CDI
green = ground
another short jumper wire (sometimes black) that goes to your start button.

So if this is the case make sure the black/white is unhooked and not touching any ground
jump the green ground wire to the little short jumper that goes to the start button

Apply the brake and hit the start button and it should start.

To kill the engine simply put a jumper from the green to the black/wite kill wire which grounds out the CDI.

JR

[JR]

scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=54179

Nope Hotstuff it's not the solenoid and you were told wrong.

That does indeed sound like you might need a solenoid. If the bike didn't crank over when you jumped the solenoid terminals, I suspect the solenoid itself.

If you jump the solenoid with a screwdriver it's the same thing as hooking battery voltage up directly to the starter itself, doesn't matter if the solenoid is bad ior not.

Here's the key to what is wrong:

When I put the other battery in, the clock comes on; when I try the electric start button, the same problem happens: it doesn't work, and the clock dims (but doesn't go out entirely.)

When I tried to use a screwdriver to jump the solenoid, there was no spark, or a very small spark, and the motor did not start.

You installed a new battery and it won't start and the dimming of the clock when you press the start button is a dead givaway as to one of 3 possible problems;

Very bad connection on the positive battery cable either on the starter itself or on the solenoid terminals
Very bad engine ground or no ground at all and the ground needs to be traced out from the battery to the frame and to the engine block to make sure of a good connection
Lastly a bad starter.

The screwdriver test tells it all. I would think a new battery is charged but you might even check this.

JR

[HotStuff2]

Well, I'm confused then. The ground is right by the battery, and is solid. As is all the connections to the solenoid.

I've been trickle charging my battery, I'm going to put it back in. But this just started happening, and I was able to get it to start most of the time (except having to kickstart it a few times), and now it won't start at all.

So replacing the solenoid wouldn't help?

[alleyoop]

That is correct HotStuff, replaceing the Solenoid will NOT HELP. Reason is The SOLENOID IS ONLY USED FOR THE ELECTRIC START. So if it does NOT START using the KICKSTARTER then you know that is NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

First thing to do is CHECK FOR SPARK. Either take a spare SPARK PLUG and pull the BOOT CAP off the one on the motor and stick the SPARK PLUG in Boot Cap HOLD the Metal Part of the Spark PLUG ON THE VALVE COVER or on the MOTOR and see if it SPARKS. Also Test to see if it will SPARK If you ground it on the FRAME.
Get back to us on that test.
Alleyoop

[JR]

There is more to the grounding wire than just the connection to the battery. The cable runs to the frame and from there to the engine block. The frame where the cable bolts too is famous for having a thick coat of paint on it and allows for very poor connections to the battery ground cable. Also most of the time you will see a green ground wire hooked to the same location which goes to multiple places in the harness.

The engine is hooked up via rubber bushings to the frame and it will not be properly grounded without the ground cable from the frame where the negative battery cable hooks up. Most of the time they bolt this cable up with one of the bolts that holds the fan cover on but some bolt it up right by the starter.

Speaking of the starter the red cable coming from the solenoid going to the starter may be loose on the starter itself so that must be checked you haven't mentioned checking any of these possibilities.

If you crossed the solenoid terminals together and got nothing not even a spark as you said then you again have a extremely bad ground or a dead starter, or a dead battery or maybe even a combination of all of them?

Since it started all of a sudden it's a indicator of a bad ground first or a bad starter. When you cross the terminals of the solenoid together it's the same thing as hooking up the starter direct to the battery. If the battery is fully charged and the starter has a good ground it will turn over even with the key off. If the ground is bad the when you put voltage to it the circuit is not complete without a ground, just like in anything electrical you MUST have both.

Your solenoid could be bad but at this point it doesn't matter it won't turn over even with you crossing the solenoid so you have other problems. If you get it to turn over by just crossing the solenoid terminals with a screwdriver then we can test the solenoid to see if it's bad also.

Again you have other issues and the only way to find them is to strip this scooter where you can trace the electrics all the way to the starter and the frame out.

Charging the battery is a good idea but after you charge it let it sit for one hour and then test it with a multimeter, it should read at the minimum 12.7Vdc or better.

For someone to say that crossing the main terminals together and nothing happened is a bad solenoid just isn't the case. A bad solenoid can easily be checked by two methods.

JR

[alleyoop]

Like I said First thing is to check if you have SPARK that will tell a lot and would be the reason it no longer starts using the KICKSTARTER.
Also IF you do NOT HAVE spark then pull the KILLWIRE off the CDI and check for SPARK AGAIN on BOTH MOTOR AND FRAME.

It sounds like you have several problems not just one and you have to do a little testing.
Alleyoop

[jct842]

Letting one problem go with out repair some times leads to multiple problems and it takes a real tech to sort them all out. John