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Post by bobf on Nov 24, 2011 15:15:00 GMT -6
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Post by JR on Nov 25, 2011 1:47:41 GMT -6
Bob there was an extremely long thread over on dawg a good time back, it actually was stickied at the top forever and was titled something like Bought a 250B and got a non B. don't sign that in blood but I think that's close.
The general concensus and from everything I've read and talked to dealers about is as you say, the plain 250 designation is the 244cc vertical clone and the 250B has been associated with the linhai clone.
For a long time especailly when the linhai clone appeared on this scooter a Reflex copy I might add they would put a picture of the scooter showing a vertical engine which if you know these engines you can tell by just looking at the muffler and CVT cover and when the person got the scooter delivered they found it to be a linhai clone. Same in reverse people thinking they had the linhai clone coming ended up with a cf moto clone. Also add to the misery was dealers who didn't know the difference either? They have actually been labled incorrectly also, the plain 250 being a linhai and the 250B ending up being a vertical cloned engine.
Pros and cons with both engines and at first the vertical engine was supreme but the linhai has caught on and it's as or more common right now.
Hope this gives some insight to your thoughts.
JR
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Post by bobf on Nov 25, 2011 15:34:53 GMT -6
OK JR, your post takes me right back to the confusion that just wrote about. I have a 250B and it is a Honda clone just as the Rocketa scooter and parts catalog says it should be. The 54B seems to be the correct place to say a Linhai clone.
Where is our friend, Lady Mc who has one of those Linhai engins, I think. Is her machine a 54B? I really can't think of her handle right now.
I won't surrender yet as I believe the 54B is Linhai and 250 plain or with a B is the Honda clone.
Thanks for you post JR.
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Post by JR on Nov 25, 2011 22:59:26 GMT -6
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Post by bobf on Nov 26, 2011 7:30:44 GMT -6
Well, you gave me quite a project to run. Will step through those links as soon as I can. But with your comments and my post that I own a 250B and it is Honda, then these comments that 250B is Linhai are just not true either.
My one experience tells me that on a next purchase I will need to be a bit more picky and know what I am ordering before putting up the money.
My scoot has YY250T on the top of the steering column area, dash area, whatever some may call it. Under the seat is the plates showing Jonway to be the builder, YY250T, 244cc, and VIN number. Is there no way to be sure what you are buying?
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Post by JR on Nov 26, 2011 9:44:44 GMT -6
With the reflex clones the only way is to know for sure is to make the dealer you are buying it from send you pictures of the CVT cover and/or the muffler, that tells all on the engine.
Now Bob by the items you names YY250T, 244cc and Jonway your scooter is called by most simply the YY250T even Crusier has one. Some even label it the CN250 but that's the engine.
Not trying to say that the 250B designation is strictly linhai but in my dealings with this scooter and from all of the people that say 250B more times than not it's the linhai. Thats the general concensus IMO.
Right now from what I've gathered they have made a new 2011 reflex clone the 244cc and they have made improvements like moving the radiator up front if my information is correct. I don't know about the stator as it has finally been discovered that the stator on the 244cc is smaller than the linhai even though it is 18 coil too. That is even a weakness of the original Honda Reflex scooter.
There are still some 250 reflex copies being sold from 07 and 08 and all of them that I've seen in the last year are linhais whether it be a JCL 250A or a Roketa 250B. If there are any leftovers on the 244cc I haven't seen one in a long time. But you'll find them labeled 3 ways YY250T, MC-54-250 or like yours YY250T and MC-54-250B which is not common from what I've seen. I haven't seen the label MC-54B-250 but once or twice and not in a long time, my opinion on this was it was a mess up label from the beginning on either scooter.
They made only a handful of these in 09 and they were all linhais from what I can find and they got in a lot of bad crankshafts as I was told and quickly stopped making them. I know of no 2010 model on either scooter due to the market still being flooded with the 07 and 08's and scooter interest not as great as it was then in 07 and 08.
Also take a closer look at your plate you'll see that Jonway did not build it but another Chinese name made it, Jonway is just a distributer. The 3 distributers of this scooter are Roketa, Jonway and JCL and BTW you can find this scooter called anything from Road Queen to Ranger! LOL
JR
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Post by bobf on Nov 26, 2011 13:55:25 GMT -6
JR, I just finished my homework. That thread you posted is really a mixed up mess. Really difficult to decide if those folks were getting ripped or if the confusion with the B designation is overwhelming. Responses like ordered a B but did not get what I wanted. Now what does that mean anyway? Did he order a 250B or a 54B? Not stated, Was he expecting a Linhai engine or a Honda engine? Not specified. To me and what was stated in the long thread was the Rocketa system said 54B for Linhai and nothing about 250 B bringing a Linhai. One responce said the following - that's supposed to be the 54B with the Linhai motor. Others responded by saying my order arrived and it is OK, but no reference to 54B or 250B and which engine had they ordered and which one they got. Yes sir, a very confused bunch of owners and posters. People must be more specific in order to tell a tale from beginning to end. Much confusion too, between the Chinese folks, the importers, the distributors, and dealers. Specifically if one wants a Linhai engine that must be clear from top to bottom and make sure that you are really ordering the right machine. I still think that ordering a 54B will bring the Linhai engine and otherwise you get what you get. Now in that thread there were some questions about the legitimacy of the Linhai engine. It is truly a licensed and agreed upon Linhai engine. .yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2003/08/01/joint.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> .yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2003/08/01/joint.htmlDetail Official announcement data of Yamaha Motor. August 01, 2003 Multi-Purpose Engine Manufacturing Joint Venture in Jiangsu Province, China Manufacturing Transferred from Japan to China ............................ Not too long so take a minute to read it. Well JR, I guess I have been learning a lot so far. Just don't think enough of us really order properly and it appears the dealers don't know much better either. I can not believe that 250B is the proper way to order a Lihai engine machine but am convinced that 54B will do the job. And just saying I ordered a B machine tells nothing. Still looking for the proper verification. . |
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Post by JR on Nov 26, 2011 20:37:17 GMT -6
No Bob the linhai in the reflex clone is a cloned Yamaha/linhai. I think you were missing the point of the long thread on dawg, I was a member when the thread came out and the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't matter what you want to call it, 250B or 54B or plain 250, you have to know which engine you want. What you may not realize other than a couple of things this scooter whether it's a 244cc or a linhai engine is the exact same scooter nut and bolt bodywise and other wise. Every part on the 244cc and the linahi are interchangable except the engine and the radiator and maybe the gas tank? When they first started selling this scooter dealers didn't know anymore than the people who were buying them and some still don't so if you go online see a picture of what they have listed as a 244cc scooter by looking at the CVT cover or muffler and call it a 250B when it arrives you may have a linhai! There has NEVER been a definitive designation this is a 250B with the linha or CF moto clone or visaversa. How could there? If you go back to the last site I listed and look at all of the pictures of this scooter you'll see they have pictures of both scooters but are going to sell you one or the other? .superiorpowersports.com/250cc_Gas_Scooter_p/rk250sc-54b.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.superiorpowersports.com/250cc_Gas_Scooter_p/rk250sc-54b.htmSo if you looked at that right now and knew one scooter from another by the pictures which one do you think you would get? But what about people who don't know? That's what caused the confusion way back when they came to market and still has people confused now. The reason I gave you all those links is to show you that you can google all three as in 250, 54B and 250B and find either scooter with the label. I can find a 250 with a moto or linhai engine, a 54B with either engine and a 250B with either engine AND a 250A with either engine! I have personally put my hands on each one of them! Now look at this scooter; .killermotorsports.com/2007_JCL_MP250A_Linhai_250cc_Gas_Scooter_p/jclmp-250a.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.killermotorsports.com/2007_JCL_MP250A_Linhai_250cc_Gas_Scooter_p/jclmp-250a.htmThis is a 07 250A just like my wifes. I went to Dallas to see my grandkids and decided to pick one of these up in 09 and went directly to their shop, paid cash and got a heck of a deal. When I walked into the door there was a 250A sitting in the shop and I told the man there that I hoped that was not the scooter they were bringing me from the warehouse only 20 minutes away? He looked puzzled and asked me what I wanted and I told him linhai because this showroom scooter was a 244cc moto. When it got there it was a linhai and I had to explain the difference to them, they are great people and treat people right but at that time they didn't even know the difference! They are now listing a Roketa along with it: .killermotorsports.com/250cc_Cruiser_Gas_Scooter_w_Trunk_Alarm_p/r-mc-54-250.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.killermotorsports.com/250cc_Cruiser_Gas_Scooter_w_Trunk_Alarm_p/r-mc-54-250.htmI haven't talked with any of the Killer people in some time so I don't know which one this is and they don't say one way or another as in 250 or 250B? What I do know Bob is if you decide to order another one of these you better not worry if it's a B or Z but rather make up your mind whcih engine you prefer and hold their feet to the fire on what they send you because my friend IMO if you say 54B and want a linha and get a moto the dealer is going to say a 54B is a moto or vise versa! LOL JR |
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Post by bobf on Nov 26, 2011 20:58:59 GMT -6
And you just said what I have been saying. If you want a Linha ask for it and make sure that is what you get.
My post about the Linhai was to show that Linhai agreed to someone to build them in China. But you still think that the Linhai is still a copy of that? Damn, is there no honesty in the Chinese scooter market? Well I hope there is and if I find the difference I will post it here.
Big confusion by the buyers and dealers. I really doubt that they just build thousands of scoots from junkpile warehouses. Look alikes and nobody knows the difference> That is the same way GM sells cars too. Several makes of cars all built on the same frames and body's with different engines and decorations. But they do know which car is which. So underneath all this confusion there really is some knowledge, just not made public enough.
I don't doubt your personal experience and knowledge by looking at key points. I am just looking for that link that makes these things legal, one way or the other. They have to be identified in some way for the various states in order to be legal.
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Post by JR on Nov 27, 2011 0:06:53 GMT -6
Hmmm interesting point? Yes Bob there is the Yamaha and then the venture with Linhai and they started making what lots of folks call the Yamaha/linhai engine. .yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2003/08/01/joint.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2003/08/01/joint.htmlThe YP250 manual we have here in the tech section is the actual 257cc original Yamaha engine. Now when they started the linhai clone of this engine they called it the 260cc engine and you see that in the linhai 260 and the VOG 260 which is a clone of the Burgman scooter with this engine in it. But wait! Down the road if I'm not mistaken the Chinese made a deal to clone the linhai clone! Now linhai is a scooter company and makes nice scooters. linhaiusa.com/Now again from what I can gather and by private info given to me by people in the know the Chinese went a step farther and cloned the linhai clone, here is just a little tid bit from a parts seller; .roketapartsonline.com/linhai-260cc-engine-parts-linhai-260cc-engine-information-p-12761.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.roketapartsonline.com/linhai-260cc-engine-parts-linhai-260cc-engine-information-p-12761.htmlAlso both of my linhai clones are not labeled as being made by the people Yamaha made a deal with to clone there motor for linhai so the concensus is the Chinese Reflex clone with the linhai is a clone of a clone? As far s the look alikes no they don't build them from warehouse junkpiles the warehouses like Roketa are just again distributers for other brands and they sell several. Roketa makes nothing, they just sell. Both of my scooters were made by two different companies the 250A again with a linhai is made by Benzhou Vehicle Industrial; lh2000326.en.ec21.com/Now the Roketa 250B is made by Unique Industrial and Trading Company; I think this is the site? chinaunik.en.alibaba.com/Also Bob I've always said that my 250b was not CARB legal for California like my 250A is but while I was reading the tags again( I have two tags) I saw the CARB certifiaction for it! Never paid that second tag much attention so that's another twist! There have been many that have passed on this scooter in California because of this non-certifiaction! Never ends the things you come up with on these scooters! LOL JR |
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Post by bobf on Nov 27, 2011 15:37:42 GMT -6
Hello JR. My scoot, MC 54 250B, YY250T, 244cc, has on its tags the following.
Big tag-
Imported by Jonway Motorcycle USA CO
Conforms to US EPA and California ARB
Middle size tag -
Manufactured by: Shanghai JMStar Motorcycle CO., LTD
Date of MFG: July 2008 GVWR: 598 Lbs
VIN: xxxxxxxxxxx Type: Motorcycle
Smallest tag -
This 2008 YY250T motor driven cycle VIN XXXXXXXXX
meets EPA emission requirement of 70db at 6000 rpm etc etc
So I have yet another MFG BY name. I got my motorcycle rating on my drivers license in May 2010 but did not buy until Feb 2011. Many months were spent in the web reading about scoots and sources. I had a long list of URL's and joined many forums. As I went along I had looked at many variations but I also found more direction for me to go well above the 50cc where I could drive without license so I then took the MC course. After passing the license requirements I then spent more time looking at specific items. Also, whenever we could I would stop in a city where I could actually see and touch scoots. I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere and only have access to scooter places in large cities, about 6 or 8 hours away in many directions. I thought I had some outlets only an hour and half away so we drove there one day and found the store. But they only sold and serviced the 4 wheelers for the farmers and hunters.
Well once in Phoenix I stopped in a scooter shop that sold various labels. That changed my mind about what to buy. I sat on one of those nice water cooled scoots. My knees were right up against the front panel and nowhere to put my feet. I checked and it had a 55" wheel base. So I switched to the ones listing 66" wheel base. Back to the web for more searching.
At 78 years and a wife of higher age I was not in the mood to pay the much higher pride labels fees. Now down to Chinese built and delivery to my garage. Sight unseen. Pretty scary. But much cheaper and I felt worth the risk. So I finally picked four and settled in to making a decision. On was a Burgman clone front to back. Looked just like my friends Burgman 400. One was a 16" wheel with 200cc. Looked real good. One was similar to what I bought, don't remember the name. And one that I finally bought.
I expected from the add and talking to the sales person that it was new, thinking 2010 for me, but just never sold to the sale person. Price was in my range, less that $2,000 delivered, I had no idea which engine it had. Today I am quite pleased with what I bought. Just like a Christmas present, did not know what was coming but I like it anyway. Some early PDI problems that I posted here. Not many miles yet. But in January I will be living in Arizona and hope to start using it more often.
My issue is with the dealers and distribution system from the Chinese source to my garage. I am sure many have done as I did and without the proper order forms where you can specify certain items, engines are more important than the color for some, they should have engine specified in the order form. That way the dealers would need to send the proper machines to the buyers.
Oh well for me. I am happy with what I got. I would have preferred the newer units with the injected fuel. But so far not a problem with my older carburetor unit. I have driven a motor cycle with injection and thought that was pretty neat. No choke to mess with, turn on the gas, and start. Pretty quick starts.
Thanks for your links JR. Had I not erased my scooter search file I would probably have some of interest for you too.
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Post by JR on Nov 27, 2011 22:17:21 GMT -6
Hey Bob thanks for asking all of this and I wish I had more answers and just like finding my CARB certification yesterday it never suprises me what comes up next.
I remember a guy once posted a thread about a new Bali 250 with a linhai and I got all excited thinking man a big tourer with the linhai and when I went to the link it was the same old 244cc.
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Post by richardthescooter3 on Nov 28, 2011 17:26:16 GMT -6
Jr my mc54b is the yamaha / linhai clone  |
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Post by JR on Nov 28, 2011 19:56:22 GMT -6
Thanks Richard, like I told Bob I haven't seen the 54B designation near as much as I have the 250B one like mine but who knows? LOL
JR
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Post by bobf on Nov 29, 2011 12:51:28 GMT -6
Jr my mc54b is the yamaha / linhai clone Glad you posted Richard. Your machine was a 54B and was a Linhai. My machine was a 250B and had a Honda. I think more with the 54B Linhai configuration should post and more with the 250B with Honda should post. I am still not convinced that 250B designates a Lihai machine. Just saying 'I have a B machine and it has Linhai', says nothing. Where was the B character? So folks, keep posting for your machines. . |
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