Ice Bear Magnum Won't Start By ellpee (Read 1,299 times)

[ellpee]

Well, they've done all of that except compression, not sure about that, and for that matter *** I *** did it all except valves and compression last time I attempted to get it going. As soon as Rapid Jim gets me the new carb -- warehouse apparently taking their sweet time shipping -- I'll see if that does it, if not will trailer it home and pick an indy guy off Craigslist to continue the battle. Had considered bringing it home and installing the new carb myself, no rocket science involved there, but decided to let the Kymco shop follow through on their recommendation including whatever adjustments might be needed on the new carb. If they STILL can't get it to start I'll write them off as incompetent and stick strictly to indy guys in future.

Ironic thought: Kymco is in fact a Chinese scoot, just the OTHER China! Do they get their steel, etc., from Japan or somewhere other than mainland China?

[ellpee]

So, trailering it home today, no luck at the Kymco shop even with brand new OEM carb, checked four other places in Tucson and none will touch it. So I'll have to figure it out myself if I can, or find somebody on Craigslist who is willing to try getting it going. Any and all ideas here are welcome. Per crwford's post, after re-checking everything Kymco says they did I'll consider looking for a timing or compression problem; bit above my normal mechanicking pay grade, but what alternative do I have? Checking compression should be easy enough, but totally clueless about how to check timing.

So frustrating, as last time I was actually able to get it started it ran fine throughout a 50-mile run up in the mountains. I would note that it was difficult to start, but once warmed up, fired up again immediately every time I stopped somewhere and shut it off. Does that suggest anything to anybody? Hard to impossible to start when cold, but fine once warmed up?

CONTINUING ... now resting comfortably in my garage, but not running. Kymco mechanic said if it were one of THEIR scooters, his next suspicion would be stator not putting out a strong enough spark or internal engine problem starting with bad compression. So I'll get a loaner tester from AutoZone and see what the cold compression looks like. Have no idea how one could check stator output, all I know is last time I checked it had a nice strong blue spark.

Also noticed, though, that they apparently didn't know where all the hoses should go on the new OEM carb -- one is just dangling and closed with a screw. If any owner of a Magnum or comparable scoot can provide picture(s) of correct hose connections, that'd be helpful. I can also try to post a picture here if anybody thinks that would help them set me straight.

[crwford]

Look as far as timing do a compression test this will tell you a lot. If you have poor or none then you check your timing or rings. But being a betting person it has compression or they would how told you. And you said it just got a new carb installed telling me you must be getting fuel. So go get a spark tester take off spark plug wire and see if it has any spark if so how strong is it. Just wondering do you not have any gear heads in your neighborhood bet if you ask them tell them you could use there help and set them up for a challenge see what happens. I know if you lived around me I would do it.

[rapidjim]

Let me see if I can help. First off forget everything that was allegedly checked or done. I will try to explain how I would go about this if it came in my shop.

First before you start , go to your local parts store and buy a can of spray carb cleaner.

Now, make sure the battery is fully charged. Remove the hose for the air filter from the throat of the carb, Spray a small amount of carb cleaner directly into the inlet throat of the carb., then try to start, if it pops or starts then your electrics should be okay and you have a fuel issue. At this point assuming that it tried to start, and knowing you have a new carb, removing the fuel line from the carb, place in a jar and crank the motor, if fuel comes out as you are cranking then the pump and vacuum is okay, if not we have to check for a vacuum issue or a bad pump. There will be 2 lines coming up from the fuel pump. one you have already disconnect which is the fuel line. The other is a vacuum line that operates the pump. Make sure that vacuum line is attached to a vacuum tee at the carb. If that is good then I would suspect a bad pump, disconnected lines at the fuel pump. The fuel pumps on a 300cc is not that easy to get at, it is mounted by the tank and requires removal of body parts. A bit more involved than I want to get into at this point.

Now, if it didn't try to start, we can check for spark. Remove the spark plug, with the spark plug in the spark plug wire, ground the case of the plug to the case of motor. A set of car jumper cables works very well for this so your hands are free. Crank the motor and check for spark. If spark is present, then you most-likely have a compression issue. A compression test is in order at this point. If you do not have spark, then we have an ignition issue. Testing the stator and coil is a lengthy explanation. I have a manual on my website that explains this in common terms. Free for all to use .rapidrepairpowersports.com/Yamaha%20YP250.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.rapidrepairpowersports.com/Yamaha%20YP250.html There is not a procedure for physically checking the CDI, if the rest of the system checks good then it is the CDI or wiring.

Hope this gets you going in the right direction.

[ellpee]

www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/15787050/640/Picture-Box/Magnum-Carb-Hoses.jpg?v0

Assuming this picture uploads, here's the deal:
(1) Note one short hose (tubing) Kymco mechanic didn't know what to do with, just plugged it with a screw.
(2) Note one hose connection on carb with nothing connected to it.

By no means sure the two are related, but what should that hose connect to and what should be connected to the orphan connector? I vaguely recollect that the vacuum line from the fuel pump led to a 'Y' connector, and the two hoses off that went to the intake manifold and one of the carb connectors, but that may have been on my Roketa, not on this Magnum.

Secondarily, note the orphan electrical connector. The enricher has two wires (red and yellow, I think, but I'm colorblind) that go into a sleeve, come out the other end, and plug into an obvious two-wire connector. But coming out of the ENRICHER end of that sleeve is a third wire, two colors, that goes ... WHERE? Right now it's just dangling, as shown on the picture. Surely it's supposed to plug in somewhere, but where, and why? What's it for?

Appreciate any answers, but no guesses, please, need the real, 100%, for-sure answers for the 300cc Magnum engine and carb.

[ellpee]

After posting the picture, just saw the two previous posts. Thanks for all that. Yes, I plan to "trust but verify" everything the Kymco people said, since they didn't even know how to hook up everything on the carb. I thought these scooter carbs were almost generic and interchangeable, but apparently not.

For Jim, since this is a new-out-of-the-box carb, I assume the carb cleaner part is by way of starter fluid, not because of any possible dirt in the carb.* Your comment about a vacuum T somewhat supports my fuzzy recollection that TWO different engine-end ports should connect to that line, only question being, which one of the several possibilities on the carb (the other, I'm pretty sure, connects to the intake manifold).

Will be getting into all of this in the next couple days; right now the battery is on the recondition cycle of my charger, as it was almost flat for an extended period and might be sulfated. If it doesn't come back to life, time to visit Batteries and Bulbs.

*By the way, as regards shooting starter fluid into the carb, you may notice on the photo that I drilled a small hole in the air intake hose for that purpose, and plugged it with a screw. Makes it easy to shoot in some ether without having to detach the hose every time. Others might find that a useful shortcut ....

[ellpee]

Odd, works for me when I click on it. Try cut'n'paste ....

[ellpee]

"The wire is in fact the lead to the temp guage, there is. a small brass protrusion somewhere near it that resembles a small brass sparklug top."

Makes sense considering what the enricher does, except my temp gauge -- temp sensor, actually -- already has a wire attached that connects to a lead that eventually goes to the temp gauge in the dashboard, and there's no way I can see to hook the mystery wire into that circuit without cutting some wires and adding in a different, double connector. Your thoughts on that?

Your comment on the vacuum line, though, confirms my vague recollections of a 'Y' connector in that vacuum line; just wasn't sure if that was on the Magnum or on my previous Roketa.

Oh, and as regards the overflow, that's on the bottom of the carb, with a tube attached that's inside a metal "spring" sort of covering. I'm familiar with that one. So apparently that extra connector on the carb has no purpose at all ... ?

[rapidjim]

Just to help, the orphan brass nipple on the choke side of the carb is a water inlet that is not used on a Magnum. If you look you will see another nipple just like it 90 degrees away. Normally this has a hose connecting the two.

The orphan hose has to be hooked to a vacuum source. Normally a hose comes from the intake manifold to a Y connector, then one end of the Y goes to that port and the other goes to the fuel pump.

[ellpee]

May 5, 2017 8:00:45 GMT -6 2stroked said:

Right now, I am trying to get my morning coffee down and half of my morningbmeds the. I will post a pic of the bulett plugs I am talking about in the enricher circuit. I will also post a pic of the fel heater adn he vacum lines..
Maybe by tomorrow you can start troubleshooting.

Yes, please post those pix. Right now, my temp sensor (like a wee spark plug) has one wire, which plugs into a connector near the carb, which has a single wire coming out and eventually finding its way to the temp gauge in the dashboard. It (the temp sensor) serves as a variable ground for the temp gauge as the engine heats up. It makes total sense to me that the enricher should have a way of sensing when the engine is adequately warmed up, but how to actually connect that extra wire and to what ... ? I can easily add in another bullet connector somewhere along that existing single wire, but not sure that's what the enricher needs, and don't want to lose my temp gauge function by fooling around with something I don't understand fully.

Appreciate your help on this, and can empathize with that morning handful of pills!

[crwford]

I think to many cooks ruin the soup ellpee maybe do what Jim says first with the carb he sent you after all he's is the man who sells and services them.

[2stroked]

Screw this. I'm out. Thanx crwford.

[ellpee]

To me, input from Jim and 2stroked is entirely consistent and not confusing, so thanks to both. Still hoping for clarification on what to do with that mystery wire. If there's a decent wiring diagram anywhere for the Magnum and its cousins, I could probably figure that out myself ....

[ellpee]

Just reading up about enrichers, and they warm up simply from the flow of 12v when the engine/ignition is on, not from sensing the temperature of the coolant. So that makes the mystery wire even more mysterious, no obvious purpose for it. Wonder how you say "WTF" in Chinese ....

[ellpee]

?Progress? Report: Checked spark (good), correctly T-connected fuel pump vacuum line to new carb and intake manifold, cranked, no go, not even feeble pops. Shot in some starter fluid, same. Got a loaner compression tester but adapter won't fit, have to find a 12mm adapter somewhere before I can test that. Will double-check fuel line this morning. Mystery wire still looking for a home, looked at some wiring diagrams but they were no help. Did NOT find that other orphan hose connector on the carb that Jim mentioned, but if it's not used on the Magnum anyway, guess it doesn't matter. Have phone numbers for four Craigslist guys who say they'll work on anything, if my efforts don't get it running I'll be calling them.

Later: Wah Lah! It's running! Pulled off the fuel line and checked it, took a bit of cranking before fuel started to flow, but once it did, reconnected the line, cranked, and it fired up. Idle needs some tweaking, and there's still the mystery of that wire-without-a-home, but it appears success has been achieved. I plan to drain out all the old gas that's been in there for a couple years, replace the fuel filter, re-tighten everything, and then hopefully I'm good to go. My analysis, looking back:

(1) the FIRST replacement carb, ordered and installed by a shop in Ruidoso back in ?2015?, was not an exact OEM match, and was the cause of the starting problems -- first difficult, then not at all. Not sure why that should be the case, carb should be carb it seems to me, assuming proper mixture and idle settings seems like one ought to work as well as the other. But that's sure what the clues would suggest.
(2) the SECOND replacement carb, OEM from RapidJim, was not correctly connected by the Kymco shop here in Tucson, so even though everything else supposedly checked good, no start.
(3) getting that carb set up properly, plus re-checking everything else -- fuel, spark, valve lash -- was finally the correct recipe.