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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 12:28:04 GMT -6
Is it better Rollers or Slider in the variator?
And if i take 5g rollers, 5g Slider is it the same weight?
I ask the quiestion, i never install rollers in a variator before!
Thank's
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Post by alleyoop on Aug 19, 2014 13:38:45 GMT -6
First thing you want to do is MARK your variator to see how high the belt is climbing up the pulley. Mark it like this 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch and run it at top speed. Then check the mark left on the Variator and put up a picture of it. Also if you have a tach what the rpms are at Wide Open Throttle. Alleyoop  |
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Post by ellpee on Aug 19, 2014 14:31:18 GMT -6
Alley, a little more help here, please. What are your instructions aiming at? What does how high the belt travels have to do with whether rollers or sliders are preferable? Is he going to see different "how high" results with rollers compared to sliders? Not trying to jerk your chain, thinking about replacing rollers with sliders on my scoots at some point and want to understand the mechanics involved.
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Post by alleyoop on Aug 19, 2014 15:19:02 GMT -6
First you want to find out how good the variator is working with what is in there which will tell if different weights will help or the problem is just that it needs more rpms or something else.
A lot of folks do not know what gram weights are currently in their variator so in addition to finding out how the cvt is currently working you have to know what gram weights are in there to make a intelligent suggestion of what would help to get better results if possible.
Alleyoop
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Post by JR on Aug 20, 2014 5:09:45 GMT -6
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Post by rapidjim on Aug 20, 2014 7:22:31 GMT -6
Just like all of MRP's videos, he pushes sales over how parts operate or how to change parts.
Rollers vrs sliders
First off, over time rollers develope flat spots which robs power and will give you engagement problems. One thing he did mention is that sliders wear evenly and that is true. Sliders do not need as much force to throw them out, so you do not loose 500-600 rpms like you would with every gram of rollers. Sliders expect around 300 rpm change verses 500-600 rpm changes with rollers.
You need to take your rollers out and find a gram scale ( your local Post Office or Jewler will have one) and find out what the weight you have now.
To get a direct interchange between rollers and sliders, go 1 gram higher on your sliders.
More information, The over simplified explaination that is very common is that heavier weights give you more top speed, and lighter weights more take off. This is true to a point, but there is extremes that will acutally cause issues.You need to match your weights to what the engine is foing or is cabale of doing. The variator weights control what is called the "constant engine speed". I'm sure you've noticed when you give your scoot full throttle it holds a certain engine speed while the vehicle accelerates. The variator controls this engine speed. If your engine is above it's maximum torque because of too light of of weight, it will not accelerate like it could. If your engine is below it's maximium torque because of too heavy of weight, it also will not accelerate well as it will bog. So, this being said, you can actually gain top speed AND acceleration by lightening the rollers. This is true for a number of reasons. Your engine has a certain engine speed, RPM, that is it's most powerful and most efficient, this is called the torque peak. You cannot get maximum performance without being at this RPM. Second, remember that the variator get to it's maximum contraction almost immediately upon acceleration, and holds there, it's the rear pulley that slowly contracts as rear wheel speed increase, therby increasing the ratio between engine and wheel, making for more road speed.
To conclude and simplify: lighter rollers increase the "constant engine speed", and heavier rollers decrease it.
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Post by alleyoop on Aug 20, 2014 14:54:52 GMT -6
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Post by ellpee on Aug 20, 2014 17:02:28 GMT -6
All good, but I'm still wondering about that "how high the belt is going" part. Seems to me that at WOT the other the belt is going to go ALL THE WAY up. Or wait, it's the other way around, right -- as RPM increases the pulley opens and the belt actually goes down? Does it travel more or less with sliders than with rollers? Does it travel less as the same rpm when the rollers are starting to get worn? If one does that test, how are the results to be interpreted?
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Post by alleyoop on Aug 20, 2014 19:38:57 GMT -6
Just remember a bigger wheel will turn a smaller wheel faster. Your bigger wheel is created by the variator as the belt climbs up the face of the pulley and the smaller wheel is created by the belt pulling the Clutch pulley apart so the belt moves down in the Clutch pulley. As far as worn weights whether rollers or sliders it will require higher rpms to run at a speed that before required less rpms. So worn weights require more rpms to get to speed. The test will determine if you can get more out of that variator. If after the test the mark left is approx 1/8 then that is the most you can get out of that variator with the current setup. If you notice on the edge of the Variator the angle is great and that is there for a purpose, safety. The purpose is so that the belt does not climb to the edge and possibly come out from between the pulley. Now on the test If the mark left is 1/4 or more then you can get a few more mph on your top end with maybe just putting in heavier weights. This also all depends on the power of the motor and RPMS. The CVT works by centrifugal force the faster you turn the variator the more centrifugal force is created, same holds true with the Clutch Pads. If you put in stronger springs on the clutch pads it will take more centrifugal force to have them thrown out and grab the bell to turn the wheel. Alleyoop Now to get a good visual , here is my Prodigy Variator 115mm in diameter. Notice the mark left approx 1/8 from the edge. Now my OEM was only 107mm and also the mark on that one was 1/8 from the edge. So I picked up the 1/8 that was left on my OEM plus another 1/8 on the bigger diameter variator for a total of approx 1/4 of an inch gain creating a bigger wheel and got about 5 more mph on my top end.  |
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Post by JR on Aug 20, 2014 20:27:52 GMT -6
Just like all of MRP's videos, he pushes sales over how parts operate or how to change parts. Rollers vrs sliders First off, over time rollers develope flat spots which robs power and will give you engagement problems. One thing he did mention is that sliders wear evenly and that is true. Sliders do not need as much force to throw them out, so you do not loose 500-600 rpms like you would with every gram of rollers. Sliders expect around 300 rpm change verses 500-600 rpm changes with rollers. You need to take your rollers out and find a gram scale ( your local Post Office or Jewler will have one) and find out what the weight you have now. To get a direct interchange between rollers and sliders, go 1 gram higher on your sliders. More information, The over simplified explaination that is very common is that heavier weights give you more top speed, and lighter weights more take off. This is true to a point, but there is extremes that will acutally cause issues.You need to match your weights to what the engine is foing or is cabale of doing. The variator weights control what is called the "constant engine speed". I'm sure you've noticed when you give your scoot full throttle it holds a certain engine speed while the vehicle accelerates. The variator controls this engine speed. If your engine is above it's maximum torque because of too light of of weight, it will not accelerate like it could. If your engine is below it's maximium torque because of too heavy of weight, it also will not accelerate well as it will bog. So, this being said, you can actually gain top speed AND acceleration by lightening the rollers. This is true for a number of reasons. Your engine has a certain engine speed, RPM, that is it's most powerful and most efficient, this is called the torque peak. You cannot get maximum performance without being at this RPM. Second, remember that the variator get to it's maximum contraction almost immediately upon acceleration, and holds there, it's the rear pulley that slowly contracts as rear wheel speed increase, therby increasing the ratio between engine and wheel, making for more road speed. To conclude and simplify: lighter rollers increase the "constant engine speed", and heavier rollers decrease it.
With Rollers that is on a very small scale as far as top end is concerned and in some cases people are very disappointed when they change. Let's use the typical GY-6 which you well know performs differently on different style scooters, why? The engine has too many variables. I have one on the heavy 150 Bali cruiser style scooter with the small 52.4mm piston which actually equals a 125cc so add the weight and smaller bore and you'll find dropping the roller weight will give you a quicker take off and in my case helps in these Arkansas hills but does nothing for the top end, simply put the engine with the weight doesn't do well with lighter rollers, not enough ponies to keep it in the max rpm to hp curve, one gram lighter means nothing on top end.
Also figure belt length, mine came with a 842, change it to a 835 and lose top end, climb a hill better but nothing on top end. Take the same engine in one of the smaller 150 frames and you'll see better performance with roller changes.
But when I went to 13g sliders one gram lighter than the OEM rollers I kept my take off, pulled better in the hills and gained a whopping 2 MPH on the speedo, variator changes are minimal with the 52.4mm piston on a heavy scooter and with a lard butt like me on it.
But take my 250's with the linhai there was a lot more noticeable change when converting to sliders, I actually went for the OEM 14g rollers to 12g sliders, gained a little top end, a very noticeable take off gain and for sure a lot better pulling power in the hills just adds to the saying, "no replacement for displacement."
As I said it all depends on what you have, how you ride, and where you ride.
Also I wasn't in any way pushing MRP but rather was using their demo to explain the differences in rollers versus sliders which the videos do a good job of doing.
JR
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Post by rapidjim on Aug 21, 2014 7:20:07 GMT -6
Also I wasn't in any way pushing MRP but rather was using their demo to explain the differences in rollers versus sliders which the videos do a good job of doing. I didn't mean that you were pushing MRP at all, I just meant that his videos are more commercials than helpful. |
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Post by ellpee on Aug 21, 2014 8:06:59 GMT -6
SUPER explanation, Alleyoop, now I get it, and I went back and looked at the various YouTube videos about how variators work to clear up my own lingering confusion. More RPM = rollers out = sides of pulley pushed together = bigger wheel = smaller wheel in back. I'll write that backwards on my forehead so I see it every time I look in a mirror. Thanks to JR too.
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Post by JR on Aug 21, 2014 20:05:51 GMT -6
Also I wasn't in any way pushing MRP but rather was using their demo to explain the differences in rollers versus sliders which the videos do a good job of doing. I didn't mean that you were pushing MRP at all, I just meant that his videos are more commercials than helpful. I understand and they do a lot of sales pitches but in this case their video did a good job of explaining the concept of roller versus sliders and their sales stuff didn't mean anything to me, with MRP it never does!  |
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Post by rapidjim on Aug 29, 2014 6:58:41 GMT -6
Don't have to worry about MRP selling parts any more, they have filed chapter 7 bankrupcy.
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Post by JR on Aug 30, 2014 15:53:11 GMT -6
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
