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Post by 7ken on May 13, 2014 6:35:25 GMT -6
Went traveling today to 3 different Suzuki dealers and all I learned is they don't stock the CDI. Talking to one of the techs I asked if they changed the timing from the 125 when they took it to 150cc and he said yes but he didn't have a copy of the specs.
Not 100% sure he's correct but I suspect so. Still the engine still has the same stroke so I'm hoping the major changes were just the bore and jets?
I went down the road and found a CDI for a "125" @ 6x's the price of the last one, brought it home plugged it in and now have top end.
It advances (no dyno) about 22 degrees.
One thing that concerns me is upon reconnecting the (start solenoid) wire I still didn't have to apply a brake to start this engine. That's not cool..
I understand on my Yamaha Mio Automatic why only the brake needs to be applied but there needs to be a neutral switch or maybe like on my Harley I can wire something into the clutch, still a neutral switch is maybe I can wire in since there is a neutral light but I haven't even looked into it yet. It should be ground activated so maybe a splice int the gnd to the solenoid. That's another issue I'll look at later.
I've got the front forks apart so I can't go riding now, but soon.
I will continue my studies but at a slower rate depending on how the engine performs.
Thanks to all for your input..
Ken
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Post by 7ken on May 13, 2014 6:31:11 GMT -6
Yes very common, in fact rare to have a DC type CDI with the only way of killing the engine being cutting off the power source.
Even on my Chinese 250B it has a kill switch ground wire to the CDI. When killing the engine you are cutting off 12Vdc and grounding out the CDI at the same time. Does this cycle have a handlebar kill switch? if so then I'm betting the wire splices in to the same ground wire from the key switch.
JR
I guess I should have said "3 ways" as there is also a "kill" wire going from the ignition switch to the CDI. No handlebar kill switch, only the ignition switch. One pulse coil wire goes directly to the CDI. The other goes to the CDI and there is a splice taking it to the ignition switch off position, grounded. |
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Post by 7ken on May 12, 2014 4:37:26 GMT -6
I believe he wants a CDI that advances more?  He could also slot the mounting holes on the PICK UP COIL and move it to the LEFT, that would give it about a 3% advance. Alleyoop From what limited info I can translate on the 150cc 4 stroke engine from a Chinese forum, This Chinese engine should start at about 12 degrees. At about 2k rpm starts the advance curve or "square" depending on many factors but regardless it ends up at about 32 degrees by 5k rpm. That's a minimum of 20 degrees advance. Understanding why engines advance is another forum. This one has to or it will simple not operate between 1 and 8k rpm.. |
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Post by 7ken on May 12, 2014 4:26:47 GMT -6
Thanks for getting back JR.. It was when I saw a diagram (pic under CDI pics) showing the 2nd pulse coil wire going into the CDI that I thought to buy and try a cheap CDI. Yesterday not caring if I fried the new CDI or not I tried switching some wires around. Gnd 2nd pulse coil wire = no fire Gnd 2nd CDI gnd = no fire Gnd both CDI and pulse coil = no fire Reconnect 2nd pulse coil to CDI = v room but only to high idle.. no advance. As mentioned in my original post the 2nd pulse coil wire goes to both the CDI and ignition switch and it grounded in the off position. ?? 2 ways of turning the CDI off, cut the 12v and gnd it? I think the CDI I got (black box no #'s) is designed for an engine with centrifugal or other advance? Doubtfully possible  |
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Post by 7ken on May 12, 2014 3:36:18 GMT -6
It's part of the emissions control designed to burn excess hydrocarbons.
There are several reasons not to remove it, the least of which is you may not be able to pass inspection.
People have been removing emission controls since they were first introduced with varying results. Usually wanting to add a performance exhaust system, go fast and loud.
There are some systems that you can simply block off and others that if you do it will create problems.
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Post by 7ken on May 11, 2014 3:18:09 GMT -6
From Ken's Unwanted library of Suzuki GS 150  Newer engines with electronic ignitions usually have an electronic advance. Some engines have fixed timing with no advance at all. The lower the compression ratio of the engine means more spark advance is needed. This is because rapid combustion is aided by a high compression pressure. Because the combustion process takes place quicker with a high compression ratio less time is needed, therefore less spark advance. Conversely lower compression pressure slows the combustion process, necessitating more spark advance.  When I (gave up) or tried to order the original CDI I found it nowhere, at least not under it's original part # Langfang Kokusan D150-LK3.. nothing! 3 attempts @ trying to contact the company, all unanswered. So I continue, reluctantly. I've looked at several Chinese sites and forums considering the engine was made there. (Jinan Qingqi Suzuki) I even tried to join a couple forums in China but registration was "closed". One site was helpful in giving me an idea of the advance degrees. Idle 12 to 32 degrees full advance. The timing from the pulse coil and flywheel seem to be my stumbling place unless I'm over thinking it?? because I don't want to buy another CDI that doesn't work. Maybe a "performance" CDI with a similar map? Pulse pickup coil has two triggers, one for TDC starting and the other for the advanced spark. The short negative pulse is for the Advance spark and comes first, followed by the stronger negative pulse. As the RPM increases, the pulses grow. When the short pulse is strong enough, it takes over triggering the ignition. Another Thanks for any help! Ken  |
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Post by 7ken on May 10, 2014 0:39:45 GMT -6
They advance but only about 1-2 degrees, not much at all and they jump around a little. If you have a timing light put it on and you will see. They do have advaning CDIs that are FIXED advanced and also like the one I have on it advances starting around 3K but is retarded for start ups so it it easy on your starter clutch. Alleyoop I can't tell the advance of this bike but I guess if I keep searching I can learn the Comp Ratio etc and an approximate advance but I would think at minimum 10 degrees. This is the problem when no specs are available. I know this engine was made in China for Suzuki, put on a Pakistani bike and labeled differently depending on the country of sale. I also know unless this project begins to see light it will be scraped. An original CDI ordered from China and maybe in a month or so I could check the advance curve. Depressing |
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Post by 7ken on May 9, 2014 23:47:52 GMT -6
How do you know there is no Advance, and normally the stock CDI's DO NOT ADVANCE they are timed at a fixed position. Alleyoop I'm not sure I understand this. A 4 stroke engine running from 800 to 8k rpm with no advance? |
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Post by 7ken on May 9, 2014 23:10:41 GMT -6
Missed that I thought it wasn't running because the CDI didn't match up and you was wanting to replace the OEM CDI with another system?
No you got it right. I am trying to use a different CDI. I was just saying that the original harness has the safety (brake on) wiring that originally ran into the CDI. Now that I understand it's purpose I can wire it back into the system. I believe independent of the CDI... |
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Post by 7ken on May 9, 2014 23:04:42 GMT -6
"Original" 8pin (6wire)  "Transplant" 6pin (5wire)  Wiring in use now. VDO ~ 12vdc orange from key 5W ~ unused IGN ~ bl + wh Between PC- & VDO is gnd ~ bk + wh PC+ ~ green PC- ~ blue ~~~~ the disputed wire that shows only gnd on most schematics.  I have only seen this wiring diagram one time and the link to it goes no-where so I have no idea what bike it comes from. Most all the wiring diagrams I've seen for the 6pin 5wire don't use a 2nd pickup wire. In my case the blue wire but it is marked as a 2nd gnd... Since I can't find any info on wiring the pulse coil and understand now that there are many different configs available I've come to the conclusion this "transplant" while it will allow for the motor to start and run nicely up until around 3k rpm will not work. I don't believe it has a "map" advance circuit it it.. |
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Post by 7ken on May 9, 2014 14:51:44 GMT -6
It would be simple to fix the start system through the brake and if you're willing to do some re-wiring we can convert it to a standard 5-wire CDIU system but you would need to change the coil as well. JR It was originally wired with that circuit and I just taped it off so I believe putting it back in will be fairly simple now that I understand it. (read another of your posts) thanks.. Better if I can wire it through the neutral wire/light but that's not a priority right now. Understanding the the pulse coil wiring, knowing how to connect it using only one wire to the CDI if possible would be a big help. I'm pretty sure even though it's running I have it wired wrong since there is no advance. Curious why I would need to change the coil? & would there be other advantages to doing it "that" way? Ken First bike I've ever had where I couldn't find a manual or wiring schematic. |
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Post by 7ken on May 9, 2014 6:04:19 GMT -6
This is the first site where I have seen mention of the wire going to the start solenoid. I had wondered why there was no "safety" to the start system, like brake on.. (need a smiley with a light bulb). Since the neutral light is only that this bike would appear to start in gear? Not coo!, it would be nice to change that. At least if the brake is on that would help, figures it's the one wire I didn't use, BUT need to! This "transplant" is getting more complicated than I had expected. |
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Post by 7ken on May 9, 2014 5:57:20 GMT -6
0.7vac on both the blue & green wires.
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Post by 7ken on May 9, 2014 4:58:03 GMT -6
I recently bought a 2005 Suzuki GS 150. After checking the electrical I found the 8pin CDI (using only 6pins) is bad. Not being able to find a manual or any wiring schematics I learned why, it's was made in Pakistan.
I’ve taken most of the harness apart in hopes of understanding and adapting a "standard" 6pin DC CDI.
The problems I'm having are, 1st the pulse coil (pickup) wires “2” both go into the CDI. On most others and aftermarket ones I've seen there is only one wire going to the CDI. When I follow my wires one goes to the CDI and the other goes to the CDI and the ignition switch, it is grounded when the switch is off. There is also a wire going into the starter solenoid from the ignition switch?
orange ~ ign +
gr + y ~ ign -
bk + wh ~ gnd -
bl + wh ~ coil +
gr ~ pickup sensor
bl ~ “ “ & ign -
I found a cheap 6pin DC CDI, I would guess by it's low price and lack of brand or part #'s it's from China. I had come across a wiring diagram that showed one pulse coil wire going into the regular place on the CDI and unlike others it showed the other going into the "gnd" right below it. I thought lets give it a try and the bike fired right up. The problem is I'm pretty sure it's not advancing.. Any ideas?
Thanks..
Ken
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