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Post by insanetexan on Feb 9, 2015 11:35:13 GMT -6
As of today 2-9-2015 I finally was ably to get back to work on my scooter. So far I replaced the stator and tried running the scooter and I was at 14.5 volts on the volt meter. Revved up the engine and when I throttled back down the voltage showed to jump up to 17 to 18 volts. Thought maybe the R/R was a little faulty so I replaced the old one with a new one and now I am only showing around 12 volts. Also the connections on the Stator to R/R are getting so hot you can barely touch them. It has already melted my headlight switch once which I replaced and now it to is getting really hot.
For awhile I had no lights what so ever so I bought what I thought was a replacement blocking diode and mounted it and while running the scoot I heard a really loud pop. Blew that puppy out. Put the old blocking Diode back in and had lights again for only a little while till they stopped working again. I am guessing on the lights that the blocking diode is bad.
Also let me say I had all the plastics off the scoot and went through each and every wire to make sure they were all good and were not grounding out on anything. Checked all the ground wires and they are all good as well.
I am very stumped over this problem and I am getting to the point where I am not gonna be able to keep buying items that only work for just a little while for this thing.
Any and all suggestions that may help that I have not already tried are greatly accepted and appreciated.
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Post by alleyoop on Feb 9, 2015 16:22:03 GMT -6
If the R/R is putting out more than 15 volts it is not regulating the voltage and is bad. Revving it up to around 3-4k it should put out 13+ volts the optimum R/R output is 14.5-14.7. If it does not put out it is bad when revving it is also bad. Now wires getting hot is a indication there is a bad ground someplace or bad connection or a lot of resistance from something causing those wires to get hot.
Alleyoop
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Post by JR on Feb 9, 2015 18:39:34 GMT -6
Remind me is this the linhai or moto vertical clone? Since you are putting in LEDS and such it's not uncommon for the linhai to hit 16 to 17 volts. Are you sure you got the right R/R?
JR
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Post by insanetexan on Feb 9, 2015 19:43:32 GMT -6
It is the Linhai motor. As far as buying the right R/R that I am not sure of, the listing stated that it was for the roketa scooter 250cc motor. I was kind of skeptical when it arrived being it was a little smaller than the old one.
Ok so if it is not unusual for the linhai to go to 16 or 17 volts output then that would make sense since it doesn't stay at that high voltage constantly. Now as far as the R/R, blocking diode and headlight dimmer switch heating up to almost near impossible to touch and already melting one dimmer switch I am befuddled.
As stated in an earlier post before I have stripped the plastics and ran down all the wires one by one and they were all fine. None of them were crossing over or grounding out.
I am just having so many problems with this situation and this well be the second riding season I might not get to ride.
I guess I am gonna have to go back through the wires once again and see if by some freak accident I missed something.
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Post by insanetexan on Feb 13, 2015 13:14:22 GMT -6
Just finished running some new wires (14 Gauge), red wire from R/R to blocking diode and the yellow wire that tied into that wire and runs to the radiator fan switch, rear parking lights and dimmer switch. Also replaced the red from the blocking diode to the fuse on the starter relay and up to the ignition switch (also with 14 Gauge). I ran the scoot to check and see if the wires were going to get hot and the wires from the R/R connection to the rest of the scoot did not heat up, but the wires from the Stator to the R/R got so hot they melted together and the R/R itself started to heat up, but not very hot, just warm to the touch. My question now would be are the Stator wires from the Stator to the R/R connection to small of a gauge for the output? They look to be around a 20 or 22 gauge wires. If I pulled the Stator back out and changed those wires to 14 Gauge would that help the over heating problem?
Also if anybody could point me in the right direction for the correct R/R for this thing it would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by ellpee on Feb 13, 2015 15:01:02 GMT -6
EMail sales@oregonmotorcycleparts.com about the correct R/R. He was very helpful when I was shopping, and the R/R I wound up with has been great for some 1200 miles now. He's not cheap, but his product has totally lived up to his reputation on this forum. He's probably going to want as much detail as possible about your scooter and the current R/R, pictures of wires/plugs/etc. would be nice too. As to the overheating wires, my understanding is that heavier gauge wire is just about ALWAYS a good thing, although as people have been saying, with that kind of overheating there's almost got to be a serious short in play somewhere and heavier wire won't correct that.
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Post by JR on Feb 13, 2015 18:12:17 GMT -6
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Post by ellpee on Feb 14, 2015 8:34:27 GMT -6
Not to dispute your advice, JR, I'm just learning a lot about the charging system parts by following this thread. But If more AC from the stator (and conversely, less AC from the stator on my vertical-engine scoot) was a factor in my charging problems, why did installing one of Oregon's gorilla-grade regulators solve it? Does the R/R somehow ADD volts to whatever it's getting from the stator? I know the AC voltage from my stator was sho nuff lower than the readings insanetexan was getting, only in the low 20's at idle and up around 70 at high RPM. Can you or anyone explain that a bit more for my benefit? |
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Post by alleyoop on Feb 14, 2015 12:27:17 GMT -6
I agree with Ellpee, It does not matter what the stator puts out as long as it is enough if the stator is bad then what that means it is not producing Electricity. But if it is producing Electricity the R/R takes that and here is the magic word REGULATES the amount put out to the battery and everything else. If it does not regulate the voltage going out then if to much you will have wires getting hot and or things melting because of to much voltage.
Alleyoop
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Post by insanetexan on Feb 14, 2015 13:16:02 GMT -6
I am thinking in the way Ally is going here. I am getting the full juice from the Stator but I think it is somehow not flowing through the R/R as it should, therefore causing an overheating problem at the Stator and R/R connection and not anywhere else now. (with the old R/R installed)
I will be ordering the new R/R Monday and also check to see how far down the wires are melted together on the Stator side.
I am in the process right now of running new wires for the keyed black wire, the yellow lighting wire, the red constant hot wire and the green ground wire. I am replacing those wires to 14 gauge.
Ellpee that R/R you listed looks good and is probably a better one than the Chinese ones, but because of money restraints I am going to have to go with the one Jr showed and after replacing all these wires and adding in the new R/R hopefully it will solve my problems.
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Post by ellpee on Feb 14, 2015 16:51:27 GMT -6
Well, what I know is that a regulator turns AC into DC; learned somewhere along the line that AC "changes directions" every half cycle or words to that effect, and the regulator only lets one half of that through, resulting in DC coming out the other side. That may be a bit crude by way of an explanation, but it's the way I think of these gadgets to keep my brain from exploding. So if something like 13-14V needs to flow to the battery when everything is up and running, anything more than that coming out of the stator in AC form ought to be good. Low 20's for my scoot, low 40's for i.t.'s, but same idea. Yeah, probably a little loss along the way from resistance or heat or whatever. But this post is by way of showing how a total non-electrician layman thinks about problems like this. And again, not arguing with the gurus, just trying to get my mind around it.
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Post by JR on Feb 14, 2015 18:14:13 GMT -6
I am thinking in the way Ally is going here. I am getting the full juice from the Stator but I think it is somehow not flowing through the R/R as it should, therefore causing an overheating problem at the Stator and R/R connection and not anywhere else now. (with the old R/R installed) I will be ordering the new R/R Monday and also check to see how far down the wires are melted together on the Stator side. I am in the process right now of running new wires for the keyed black wire, the yellow lighting wire, the red constant hot wire and the green ground wire. I am replacing those wires to 14 gauge. Ellpee that R/R you listed looks good and is probably a better one than the Chinese ones, but because of money restraints I am going to have to go with the one Jr showed and after replacing all these wires and adding in the new R/R hopefully it will solve my problems. OK let me get some points straight, especially since I own two of the linhai scooters, the stators even though 18 coil like the vertical engine have more/heavier wiring and a larger OD simply put they put out more AC than the vertical stator and the R/R works less to regulate the voltage.
The R/R on the vertical engine is letting all it can out at all times, why? Small wires, the pissy cheap fuse box that voltage is ran through to different circuits, and the large load amp fan that drags it's down. Headlights on and fan running for any period of time it can't keep up a lot of the times. One can gain some by putting in a good fuse box, replacing the amp hog fan with the linhai fan that pulls half the amps and replacing every bulb on it with LED's then put on the Oregon Cycle R/R, why?
R/R's have a minimum and maximum threshold range and the guy at this place with a members help a way time back made/designed one that would allow more charging voltage out above the high point threshold of the Chinese R/R up to the maximum of the stator. Also remember Elpee replaced the diode with a relay and gained about another .5 amp in charging by doing so.
In simple English the vertical engines charging system is weak, always has been, NOT the linhai.
I fell into the change all the bulbs with LED's and I'm glad for the extra safety of brighter lighting but the result? My system with all the lights on and fan running will still put out 13.5 Vdc at idle. Rev it up with a fully charged battery and the fan running it'll put out a steady 14.5 Vdc all day long, fan goes off and she charges at 15.5 to 16.5 Vdc, have a digital volt meter on it to see. I also use a 14AH 225 CCA battery and it'll not melt down like the little 7 to 9AH batteries do. Lets also consider the linhai system doesn't have the extra mile of wiring with the stupid fuse box and the fan will only run with the scooter running just like the head/tail lights will only burn with the scooter running. The fan runs off of the R/R output, not the battery, it does make a difference.
Now you've replaced a lot of wiring, and I would damn sure check the light switch out very carefully, why? The hi/lo headlights run fro the R/R and there is a passing switch button, spring loaded when pressed makes the hi beam only come on, it's called a passing light. "If" this circuit in the switch has melted/fused together (and it can happen) then you are feeding the head/tail lights with R/R output and 12Vdc from the battery thus you are going to heat things up big time. It will also make 12Vdc from the battery with the key on feed back to the R/R and burn it up. Open the switch up and check it out big time.
When you get the R/R in and along with your rewiring I would check the charging voltage at the battery, if it's high then put something on it like a accessory of some such (radio) or even put in bigger watt headlight bulbs to load it up more but again go through the hi/lo dimmer switch.
Not being rude even though the vertical engine has the same R/R, blocking diode and a 18 coil stator that's where the charging system being the same stops. The linhai will put out more/higher voltage and one can even put on the brighter headlight system with ease and never have a issue, shame the vertical engine didn't do the same.
JR
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Post by JR on Feb 14, 2015 18:42:10 GMT -6
Not to dispute your advice, JR, I'm just learning a lot about the charging system parts by following this thread. But If more AC from the stator (and conversely, less AC from the stator on my vertical-engine scoot) was a factor in my charging problems, why did installing one of Oregon's gorilla-grade regulators solve it? Does the R/R somehow ADD volts to whatever it's getting from the stator? I know the AC voltage from my stator was sho nuff lower than the readings insanetexan was getting, only in the low 20's at idle and up around 70 at high RPM. Can you or anyone explain that a bit more for my benefit? As I said earlier, the Oregon R/R has a higher output limit, and shunts less voltage to ground, when your system demands more voltage which it does all the time with this scooter it gives all the stator can produce instead of limiting it's high end output.
Your head/tail light system runs from the battery to the key switch to the fuse box and then to the hi/lo beam switch, thus more amp load and harder on the battery.
The linhai version goes right from the R/R output straight to the hi/lo beam switch= less load and better lights and better battery charge. Even the fan runs straight off the R/R and doesn't put the drag on the battery that happens on the vertical engine.
Since these things run off the R/R it puts out at a higher output most of the time because it is always got a load demand, this also helps the battery stay up better because it works less.
JR
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Post by ellpee on Feb 14, 2015 22:43:04 GMT -6
Thanks for all that typing, JR. Guess I could wish my Roketa had come with the Linhai engine, but as things stand I apparently found the right combination of gizmos and everything is working well at the moment. If i.t. can get his problems sorted out without having to dump a Benjamin for a macho R/R, all the better. Wonder why, along with the R/R difference, Ching Chong Enterprises also decided to add a fusebox with the vertical engine version. As you know, it didn't take me long to figure out that was junk and replace it with a US equivalent. A wiring PITA at the time, but no problems since.
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Post by JR on Feb 14, 2015 22:52:21 GMT -6
Thanks for all that typing, JR. Guess I could wish my Roketa had come with the Linhai engine, but as things stand I apparently found the right combination of gizmos and everything is working well at the moment. If i.t. can get his problems sorted out without having to dump a Benjamin for a macho R/R, all the better. Wonder why, along with the R/R difference, Ching Chong Enterprises also decided to add a fusebox with the vertical engine version. As you know, it didn't take me long to figure out that was junk and replace it with a US equivalent. A wiring PITA at the time, but no problems since. Often asked the same question, why not the fuse box on the linhai? It's not a bad thing to have fuses if it's in a good box.
JR
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
