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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 11, 2013 14:19:27 GMT -6
I have just ordered a R/R just to eliminate it, are you saying the wiring is( Or at least a big likely) to do with no spark? Would also like to apologize as this is something i should of mentioned in my 1st post. Sorry. I can get you pictures tomorrow morning it's dark outside now. It has a key switch, with 3 wires coming out of it. Not attached to nothing as they have been snipped. inside the ignition looks like a screwdriver has been inserted. The multi-meter i have been using is simular to this one: ( Only Difference is Drapper Logo and It goes up to 600 not 500 )  Not sure on settings ect to be honest, but i can learn how to read what i need with a little guidance if you don't mind helping me. If this is no good i don't mind buying a new 1, just got this off my dad for this particular scooter problem. Parts seem so expensive for this scooter, buying CDI, R/R and a ignition barrel would cost more than you can buy a complete working Honda SGX50 lol.. I am probably going to wait for 1 to come up spares or repairs again and buy it so i can use all the fairing and ignition barrel, be cheaper that way. ------------------------------------------------------------------ EDIT: CDI and R/R i have brought are for a Suzuki Katana AY50, reading on this forum they are the same parts for Honda SGX Sky 50. So these will work fine? Just asking for confirmation really, thanks. |
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Post by JR on Nov 11, 2013 19:49:28 GMT -6
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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 12, 2013 1:57:08 GMT -6
Thank you, haha. Kinda of brought it as it was buy-now so kinda have to pay for it, don't want to mess no one around... I got it cheap though so i don't mind. You seem to be around 5 hours in front of me. It's 07:45am right now. Gets dark same time as you  Lol i brought my R/R from him:  From the .co.uk side though, same price though as that 1 up there but better condition by the looks of it. Didn't think to check on there as well. It's actually around 8.5 hours away, glad its getting delivered hehe. My CDI:  I got for £8 as well, was a buy it now for £4 and £4 postage, must of been a mistake they were selling other bits off bikes well dearer They explain in the description they came from running bikes, but you only have peoples word on that. They seem to have good reputation on there so hopefully they telling the truth. Right down to business Bike Details: - Year ~ 2000 - Model ~ SGX50Y Sky EDIT: ------------------ Not sure if you wanted me to separate joined wires or separate the wiring from the frame, if these are no good let me know, i'll get some more. Also did you want pictures of anything else, or just the ignition wiring? Ignition Barrel:  Ignition Barrel Wires(Red, Green, Black, Black/White):  Left Handle Bar & Wires Ignore The Brown, That Goes Into Black & Seems To Be Used For Hotwire:  Various Wires(Red, Green, Black -> Ignition; Then A Black Wire What Comes From Handlebar; Black/White; And Then Black Again From Handlebar):  Thanks. |
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Post by JR on Nov 12, 2013 19:52:29 GMT -6
Ok first things first. On you multi-meter put the black test probe on the bottom in the hole marked COM. Put the Red test probe in the next hole up marked V^mA.
The setting we will use to do ohm resistance tests will be 200k which is one of the several settings on the bottom left of your meter which is marked by the upside down U.
The setting we will be using when testing DC volts will be on the top left corner of the meter marked by V... with the line on top which is DC volts, we will use 20 as our set point.
If we need to test AC volts we will use the settings just to the right of the OFF setting marked with only V~ and a 200 & 500 set point, we will use 200.
Now to familiarize you with ohms or continuity tests set your meter to the 200k setting and turn it on. You should have a single number come up and it will be 1. Now touch the ends of the red and black probes together and you should see the number 1 change to 00.0 which means full continuity. If the meter has a tone signal it will make a tone or beep when you do this also, if not then just read the meter.
So if I tell you to put the black probe on the negative battery cable and then take the red probe and touch any end of the Black/white wire if this wire is the ground wire by what the print says it is then you will get the full continuity reading of 0.00 or very close to it.
This is the first test I want you to conduct, the black/white shows on the R/R and up by your key switch. Of course don't test the key switch it has bee cut loose and it's very apparent you need a new one.
Now speaking of the key switch the other colors are red, black and green. Red should be from the battery and should read 12Vdc+. There is a fuse in this line so check it to be sure it's good, simple test, pull the fuse, set the meter to 200k, put a probe on each end, 0.00 or full continuity means good, meter staying at 1 = bad replace.
To test DC put setting on 20 on the DC volts. Remember this diagram colors may be a little different but we should be able to use it and meter tests to get where we need to be. Do those tests and I'll study the diagram some more.
JR |
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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 13, 2013 0:44:45 GMT -6
Thanks for the explanation on multi-meter.
Negative to Black/White stays on 1. Also R/R don't have Black/White its just a White wire. CDI has the Black/White wire
I currently don't have a battery or one connected to the bike, so don't think i can test voltage from red?
Tested fuse 00.0 so that is fine.
Thanks.
EDIT:
If the original wiring setup was correct or we get it correct and the regulator i got from ebay don't work. Could it be the Magneto/Flywheel?
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Post by JR on Nov 13, 2013 14:24:35 GMT -6
OK we can test the red without a battery. We will ohm it just like the other wire. Make sure the fuse is in and let's check red out everywhere. Naturally you have a large red wire going from the battery to the starter relay and we aren't checking it right now. The red fused wire we want to put one meter lead on it (doesn't matter which one) and use the other meter lead to check the read wire at:
The R/R unplug it Up at the key switch
If it ohms out to 0.00 we are good.
Now remember we know this diagram is not colored the same so I need two more tests.
Put one lead of voltmeter to the ground, negative battery cable, also make sure this cable is secured well and clean where it bolts up to the frame to insure a quality ground.
Put the other lead to green at the
R/R unplug it at the key switch at the CDI.
If it all ohms out to 0.00 we know green is ground
Next put one lead to the black/white wire at the CDI and unplug it too. Put the other lead to the B/W at the key switch and any other place you see black/white
If it ohms out to 0.00 we know B/W is engine kill wire.
I'm going to be out for about 4 hours will check back later.
JR |
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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 13, 2013 15:33:16 GMT -6
All tests come back 0.00.
Green is ground.
B/W is engine kill wire.
Will checkout what to do next when you reply. Thanks again.
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Post by JR on Nov 13, 2013 20:54:01 GMT -6
OK you didn't mention the red? So far it's simple. You need a working key switch some wires are self explanatory.
Black/black to black/white
Green to green
Red to red
Black to black.
Now if it's hot wired it's apparent why. So I'll explain the key switch. Like many other scooter key switches the switch is actually a two way switch. This means it is what is called normally open (NO) and normally closed (NC).
When the key switch is off the green to black/white is closed thus grounding out the CDI/coil and killing the engine. At the same time when the key is off the red to black is open thus cutting DC power to accessories like horn, brake lights, etc.
The opposite occurs with the key on, power is now on from red (battery) to black and the green to black/white is open thus un-grounding the CDI.
Now comes the hotwire mess. I'm betting they ran black, (hot with key on) to a start button to the starter relay?
But here is how the electric start system works. We will need to verify a few more wires but so far your color scheme fits the typical scooter and not the diagram of the Suzuki diagram we have for reference.
Ok I don't know if any of the handle bar switches are still there, if they are we need to open them or at least take pictures to verify the wires for me. If they are not there then you really need to get them so we can get this scooter back to OEM.
So back to the starting system, I'm going to use the typical scooter colors. Going to each brake handle is a switch, and each one should have a black wire running to them. This comes off of the key switch and has 12vDc with the key on.
They should also have a yellow/green wire coming from each switch and they should come together in a two to one connector and go to the brake lights and starter relay and again should be yellow/green. The yellow/green splits by the starter relay and supplies one side the 12Vdc positive side to the starter relay. When you press either brake handle you supply voltage to the starter realy and brake lights at the same time but.......
the scooter will not start until you press the start button. The start button wires are green = ground and red/yellow which goes to the starter relay. With the key on, a brake handle pressed if you hit the start button the engine will turn over, by pressing the start button you supply the ground side of the starter relay thus completing the circuit.
Now lets go to the CDI/coil We know this now for sure
Red/black = power from R/R to CDI
Green = ground
Black/white = engine kill wire Blue/yellow or green/yellow (picture fuzzy) = pulse signal wire from stator, this signal tells the CDI/coil when to fire.
Now lets go to the R/R I know this for sure and about sure on a couple of other wires
Red = 12Vdc output to charge battery Red/black = voltage output to CDI, I'm guessing it's DC voltage? Green = ground Yellow = stator input voltage will be AC volts White = output to head/tail lights
Yellow and white could be reversed but I don't think so.
I am not certain this scooter will start by kick starting with no battery, do not know how much output the R/R puts out without a hot battery?
But we can do some more tests even with no battery.
Set the volt meter to 200 Vac and put the black test probe to ground and put the red test probe to the yellow wire going to the R/R, with the R/R unplugged. Turn the engine over with the kick starter as fast as you can and see if you get a AC reading, it's hard to do with just kick starting it. If you get no voltage try the same test on the White wire and report back.
JR
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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 14, 2013 0:27:02 GMT -6
Red is just the battery wire i think. All wires have been cut from handlebars  only wires that are there is coming from where the horn should be, this has been replaced with that 2 strip wire, which 1 end was on green the other on B/W not sure if this was wired up to Starter Relay ect though. The left handlebar don't look like the OEM part to be honest. Errm, think it should be fine without a battery, someone on ebay was selling 1 said electric start don't work because i have no battery and the bike is for sale without 1, but the kick start works fine. Tests came back with no reading from Ground to Yellow and Ground to White. Also, the auto-choke has a yellow wire and a green with a black stripe wire. On the Magneto/Flywheel, white wire is attached to the flywheel, green with black stripe goes to the sensor. Don't know if this is helpful at all. Thanks. |
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Post by JR on Nov 14, 2013 6:14:31 GMT -6
You mentioned fuse was good, this should be on a red wire. If you check it for continuity it should ohm out on the red wire by the key switch to 0.00 and on the R/R the same. This wire is a must to have.
Yes your info is very helpful, this now tells me the White wire feeds the R/R from the stator(magneto) and the yellow to the auto choke is voltage from the R/R to it and originally the yellow feeds the head, tail and instrument lights.
As I told you measuring voltage on the stator wire out of the stator (magneto) is difficult with the kick starter? It would be good for you to have someone kick start it over and over to see if you have any AC voltage while you check the meter. If you have none then the stator is bad. Check it again and when you put the black test probe on ground put it on the engine itself and then the other probe to the white wire. Let's check it both ways, set the meter to 200Vac and then to 20Vdc, it's possible it is a DC system but I highly doubt it.
Now here is where we are at, this scooter has been chopped all up and it seems you are not interested in a electric start battery system but this is not good even if you can start the scooter with just the kick starter and no battery. Why? The R/R puts out needed charging voltage and voltage to the head lights etc. With no battery and headlights the R/R will run charge wide open, it needs something to put the voltage in even if it has a dead battery that will not charge at all at least the complete circuit is there and it has a place to go. If you run this scooter long with no battery it'll only result in a burnt up R/R down the road. Also if you don't have headlights the yellow wire will have to be put on a resistor to shunt the voltage to ground.
I don't know your plans? Are you wanting this scooter to just mess around on or are you wanting to get it back in shape for a street legal running scooter? Are you at this point just wanting to see if the engine runs well enough to proceed in fixing it up? if so then we can certainly get it running without putting everything back on and then if the engine seems fine proceed.
If you have no voltage at all on the white wire from the stator when turning the engine over then it's time to invest in a stator.
JR
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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 14, 2013 11:58:40 GMT -6
Sorry for the late reply just got back from work, and my R/R has arrived kinda cautious to try it out in case wrong wire up can blow it, is this possible? Yeah red is fine, all tests i did ended with it being 0.00. Sorry if i wasn't clear with that. Exactly, if i can get a spark and engine runs i'm going to wait it out for a complete Honda SGX 50 Sky running or not for £100 or less then fix her back up. That is the plan anyway. Buying every part i need is overkill and will cost more than a complete running bike as you probably know.  I will get the answers to your other questions soon as, got a few things to sort. Will edit this in the next few hours. Thanks. |
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Post by JR on Nov 14, 2013 14:43:13 GMT -6
I'm on the way to basketball practice with grandkids, be back in a few hours. If the stator is bad with no voltage on the white wire going into the R/R it won't blow up, just will not have any spark still. Give it a try nothing to lose.
JR
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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 15, 2013 0:48:36 GMT -6
Tried other R/R no difference. Nothing from white wire.
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Post by JR on Nov 15, 2013 5:08:12 GMT -6
The you are at a decision making time? I would say the other owner has really did this scooter an injustice and fried the electrical system with the things that have been done to it. The question now is do you want to continue to invest money in a scooter that you are not sure will run right or not and also have to replace all the stripped parts too?
IMO you might be better off finding another one with all the parts you need and maybe combine the two for a good scooter? But regardless of what you decide we are here to help so just keep us informed.
JR
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Post by 1pkryan on Nov 15, 2013 12:23:32 GMT -6
I can only see 1 magneto on ebay for £70+ lol.... Won't be paying that. Yea looks like i'm just going to have to wait it out until i find another and combine the 2 like you say. There is 2 Honda SGX 50's spares or repairs on ebay but location is just not right unfortunately. Thanks for all your help anyway, appreciate it. If anything changes i will let you know. EDIT: When i took of the magneto. 1 of the magnetic fields have a crack right down the center of it. Could this crack be a reason for no spark as well? |
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