300cc sparks only on kick, not w/ battery ?? By martyneilan (Read 1,660 times)

[martyneilan]

I have been riding my used 2011 300cc Ice Bear Compeller for about a week, and it has been running great. Doing regular maintenance (fluid changes, tightening things) and replaced a couple of bad lights.
I was buzzing down a local highway with my wife two nights ago, cruising about 45-50. All of a sudden, power cuts out hard. I pull over to the side of the road and cannot restart the bike even though the stater keeps cranking and I can feel compression as the engine turns; eventually get it flatbedded home.
Gas is good, and fuel is getting to the carb (pulling the spark plug shows fresh gas after repeated starting attempts.)
Here is where it gets weird:
I kept the plug out so I could clearly see if it was sparking...
If I remove the battery, and use the pull starter (aka kickstarter) I get a weak spark at the plug.
If I connect the battery and crank the starter motor, no spark shows up, but the starter keeps cranking the engine which spins very freely now that the plug is removed.
If I connect the battery and use the pull starter, I still get no spark. HUH??
I brought my wife into the garage and had her watch to confirm. I have worked on cars and jeeps for years, and bikes a little bit, and never seen anything like it.

Recap:

• No battery, pull starter = SPARK
  
• Battery, starter motor = NO SPARK
  
• Battery, pull starter = NO SPARK
  

Before I start replacing every piece of the ignition system, I was hoping somebody might have seen this before. All connections seem good, no obvious shorts or wires grounding out that aren't supposed to. I replaced the spark plug with a brand new NGK and had the exact same sequence of what worked and what didn't. I will probably replace the coil eventually due to the weaker spark, but there has to be something else going on - the spark is consistently there but only on a pull with no battery.

[alleyoop]

Sounds like the CDI went south, check the BOTTOM WIRE on the CDI that is the power wire that feeds the CDI. Do you know if you have a DC or AC CDI? A DC CDI is fed 12V from the battery WHEN YOU TURN THE KEY ON.
Alleyoop

[martyneilan]

My CDI seems to be a bit of an oddball, I was hoping to replace it with an MRP or other performance unit but I can't find anything with plugs that match. I will have to go out with a multitester and check the voltage as I continue to troubleshoot later today. Attached is the only picture I could find online of my CDI; it is labeled 250CC-2221 and is a 6 pole; it doesn't match the 8 pole Linhai VOG CDI's I have seen at most dealers.
I am still wondering if I could us the Martin 01206 CDI, and that it would just involve splicing some wires to fit the different plugs.
My CDI:

Attachments:

[alleyoop]

Here is a 6 pole CDI:
Alleyoop

.ebay.com/itm/JT100608-CDI-MODULE-CHINESE-ATV-QUAD-DIRT-BIKE-250CC-300CC-CDI-RECTIFIER-MODULE-/190867716812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c709a3acc&vxp=mtr" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.ebay.com/itm/JT100608-CDI-MODULE-CHINESE-ATV-QUAD-DIRT-BIKE-250CC-300CC-CDI-RECTIFIER-MODULE-/190867716812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c709a3acc&vxp=mtr

[martyneilan]

Ordered it, but need to cancel - on close inspection the connections are very different. I will keep looking.
Been checking around on the bike - the black and red wires on the CDI harness give me a -12V with the key on, checking the red and chassis ground give me nothing - maybe it is AC. (Scooter ignition is new to me.)
The bike was almost acting like the kill switch was on, so I pulled that apart. Got continuity with the switch engaged,open circuit with it off, so the kill switch is good. I pulled the windshield and top dash and checked the ignition swich,and it was getting 12V power and seemed to be doing its job when engaged (lights / dash illuminating.)
The failure rate on Chinese CDI's seems pretty high; I would love to eventually find something more heavy duty for this bike, even if it involves doing a little cutting and splicing.
Here is a picture of the CDI out of the bike, with a closeup on the plug:

Attachments:

[alleyoop]

Ok if it gives you 12v at the CDI with the ignition key on THEN YOU NEED a DC CDI. And for sure your CDI is toast. I will keep looking for a 6 pole DC CDI.
If not then Get a hold of JIM from RAPIDPAIR he is an authorized dealer and he can get you one.
Alleyoop

[martyneilan]

Found one that appears to be an exact match for $49.99. Paid express (but not overnight ) shipping. Hopefully this will do the trick. I spoke to Rapid Jim a few times when I was looking for a trike until i found this one used locally. He will be the guy to call if this doesn't work.
If I have to replace a bunch more parts, it almost seems worth it to try that scooter fuel injection kit - it seems to include everything.

P.S. Thanks for your help, Alleyoop!

[alleyoop]

Put up the link where you found it for others that may have the same 6 Pin DC CDI.
Alleyoop

[martyneilan]

Considering I ordered the part on Saturday with 2 day shipping, I was expecting it might arrive today or tomorrow. Instead, I got an email this afternoon that they are trying to locate one from a supplier. How foolish of me to think that if I was able to order one from their website, they would have it in stock.
I called and left a message, and they got back to me in about an hour. They said they are locating one and they should have it Thursday, meaning I will get it some time next week.
At this point, I would not highly recommend the seller and would rather not post their URL. If I knew I had to wait that long, I would have gone another route. So, bike will be down at least another week.

[martyneilan]

Replaced the CDI with one from IceBear I got from Rapid Jim. Nothing. I pull the plug and it smells of gasoline. But it won't spark. I really with I had some kind of shop manual or wiring diagram or something to help. Maybe the coil is bad?

[paulviino10]

[replyingto=martyneilan]martyneilan[/replyingto]I was having a similar problem with my ice bear cyclone (157qmj) I replaced the plug with a new champion and problem is gone. The problem started after fuel, vacuum lines, fuel filter , plug changed. my trike will run stronger on autolite but hell to get started.

[martyneilan]

Sept 2, 2013 10:54:47 GMT -6 paulviino10 said:

I was having a similar problem with my ice bear cyclone (157qmj) I replaced the plug with a new champion and problem is gone. The problem started after fuel, vacuum lines, fuel filter , plug changed. my trike will run stronger on autolite but hell to get started.

Gapped a fresh NGK and put it in when the problem started, no difference.

[paulviino10]

was that the same brand installed Pryor to problem? I had read or seen a theory or report or some survey on small engine (under 25 hp) using different style , type plugs. Like i said earlier my cyclone will only run on champion. I originally had NGK it bogged down to much switched to ac delco, than had other issues so i replaced lines / hoses /filter/plug this time it was an autolite plug. Absolutely miserable to start had to pull the battery 2 x's slow charge charge went back to champion 808,problem went away. I had practically the entire motor off the trike looking for breaks cracks broken connectors air / fuel leeks . Did absolutely nothing different as far as repairs put it back to getter put in new plug it has run flawlessly since, 175 miles ago. Wish you luck, I will stay interested in the final outcome. Paul