headlights dim unless brakes applied By godfeast (Read 9,287 times)

[JR]

Two thoughts, need to just turn the key on and see if there is any power on the yellow/green wire and the yellow and or brown.

Yellow/green = brake lights
yellow or brown if they tied brown on the yellow wire out of the R/R = tail lights.

If you have power on yellow/green with just the key on and no brake handle pressed = bad stuck closed brake handle switch/es.......or yellow/green crossed and/or fused to a hot wire probably black from the key switch.

If you have power on yellow or brown with just the key on = shorted out fused together R/R........or again yellow or brown wire crossed or fused together with a hot wire probably red.

JR

[godfeast]

Digging in again tomorrow and hopefully finding the culprit - another day lost from work I suppose .

Looking through the wealth of information on making this system dc only (going that route sooner or later as I hate this complicated mess) - I have a couple 8 pole stators and a flywheel laying around, so floating the ground + wrapping a bit more magnet windings on one shouldn't be much of an issue as I am pretty sure thats an easy enough process.

I was wondering how difficult/detailed it might be to make a full wave RR that would support this without having to buy the trail tech model - running low on cash now.

I have a massive electronics / spare electrical parts warehouse nearby in Winter Park that has everything I could possibly need on the cheap and I can solder a circuit together easily enough.


Looking at this post:

.omraoffroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10564" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.omraoffroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10564

Does using something along the lines of that simple full wave rectifier seem right or could I get by with the "hidden source of power" paragraph fix to run the lights?

[godfeast]

MEH. Thanks though.

I replaced RR today and four hours later the scooters in pieces all over the front of my condo ( looking forward to a nasty letter, lol) and I still have ac at both the brown and y/grn wires before taillight harness and with disconnecting the handlebar switches.

Headlights are getting nearly no voltage and the RR is getting hotter than it should - hotter still if brake switches are plugged in and brakes activated.

I am so in over my head with this - I actually made it to work last night by buying a pair of walmart 6volt lanterns and duck taping them to either side of my front, then yanking the taillight cover off and duck taping it onto the front of a mag light, then to the rear of the bike.

I made it to work, but im surprised I didnt get pulled over.

Frustration is not a suitable word for this.

[justbuggin2]

are you sure you are using the correct R/R for your stator the stators come in def forms as so have floating grounds and others dont if the R/R is not match for the type of stator you have it will not work right

[godfeast]

will update in a few

[JR]

and I still have ac at both the brown and y/grn wires before taillight harness and with disconnecting the handlebar switches

Then you have the brown and yellow/green fused together in the harness somewhere.

No way the Y/G should have AC on it, time to start tracing out the wires in the harness.

JR

[godfeast]

I simplified the equation: removed the dash and taillight entirely and started by jumping handlebar switches.

Im showing 12v ac + on almost all my connections at the taillights - yellow/green, yellow, orange, babyblue.

According to the schematics, the orange and babyblue lines shouldnt be connected to anything at this point, so yeah, harness short.

Fifth times a charm.

[godfeast]

I've ripped the harness into shreds and tested every last single strand - no shorts. Checked and rechecked, then wire by wire hand inspecting along the length and no shorts, no melting, no indication via meter or visual inspection of anything wrong with the harness.

Logically that means that one of the components that was still hooked up is shorting internally.

That gives me a list of

1. stator

2. RR

3. Battery

4. Coil

5. CDI

6. ignition switch

7. enricher

8. starter solenoid


I think I can knock the battery off that list, and probably the coil, and cdi. - What makes sense here?

I have to be missing something.

**** looking at this for hours now. ***************

I cant figure out what could be shorting or how in the world the light blue and orange wires can have ac voltage on them when theres no short on the harness.

[godfeast]

Anyone have an idea on this? The short is absolutely not in the harness.

The voltages were read at taillight connector of main harness detached from the taillight harness and instrument, headlight harnesses.

Which component could cause this? I'm still so so on reading schematics, but I just dont see how the light blue or orange couldve gotten power at all, little less the y/g.

Is it possible that the RR somehow fed ac along the red power line through the solenoid and into the y/g line?

That's the only physical connection I can possibly see for tracing an ac voltage flow onto this wire.

[JR]

Couldn't have said it better myself John.

JR

[godfeast]

Thats just the thing. I tested this without the taillight or the headlight or the instrument harnesses attached.

This was the main harness connected to the various main components ( battery, stator, coil, cdi, solenoid, enricher, key switch , and RR ONLY and I started the bike by jumpering the far end of the harness plug at on what would be the brake switch wires and then jump starting the scooter.

I then removed the jumper, leaving NO LIGHTING OF ANY KIND ATTACHED TO THE SYSTEM, and read the voltage at the far end of the main harness plug, where it would normally plug into the taillight harness but detached from the taillight harness itself.

The values there read 12-14 volts on orange, light blue, y/g, and 2 volts on yellow - but again, the taillights werent attached, the headlights werent attached, and the entire instrument / dash panel was not attached.

I then checked the main harness bit by bit and there was no short - no crossed wires - no anything to show a problem with it.

I've understood from a few posts back that bulbs and bulb sockets can and do short, causing ac and dc to mix - that might be the case here as well, but having taken that out of the equation, I STILL HAVE an issue with ac getting on these lines when, in the case of the orange and light blue lines especially, it shouldnt be present.

This is why am at a total loss - I removed as much of the circuit from the equation as possible and was going to start working my way from there, but having found the problem to unexpectedly exist with the bare minimum of the system present, and the main harness to not be at fault, I know it has to be one of the components that are crucial to running the bike.

I cant afford to just start re-buying all of them piece by piece, so I could really use a hand figuring out what to exclude should that become the only path to fixing this.

** Buying an RR tomorrow since that was already commented on as a possible issue - see where it goes from there ***

[JR]

Godfeast I can only tell you that the orange and light blue are turn signal lights and the ONLY way they get any voltage is if the turn signal switch is engaged. left = orange and right = light blue.

12DC voltage goes the the turn signal flasher generally the black wire and of course a green grouind.

The the output come out on the usually gray wire to the turn signal switch. When you push the switch one way or another then the circuit is complete and the bulb will flash.

Now does your scooter have a emergency flasher switch? If so it will have the orange, light blue and gray running to it. When engaged it completes the circuit of putting the orange, light blue and gray together thus making all four lights flash.

Check out this, unplug your turn signal flasher and then see if you get any voltage readings on the orange and light blue. If not then plug it back in and see if you do? Also check the wiring on the flasher unit. Some are two wire some three. Make absolutely sure the black wire is fed by 12VDC with the key on.

JR

[godfeast]

I'm not sure if Im just not being understood or if my posts are too winded to be read accurately, so ill try to explain again:



I've assumed this is the case in all scooters, but just in case mines an odd one:

my scooter has three parts to the harnesses - a rear harness contained within the taillight assembly, an instrument panel harness contained within the top of the bike around the handlebars, and a main harness that runs the length of the bike.

These switches we are discussing are all on the instrument panel harness, as I am sure you know.

This was disconnected when the tests were done - there were no turn signal switches, no emergency flasher switches, no kill switch, no horn switch, no dash lights, no head lights ( or taillights since that rear harness was disconnected too) - there were no switches or lights of any kind at all involved in this circuit when I tested and found ac on orange, light blue, y/g wires.

The main harness was in the bike connected ONLY TO THOSE COMPONENTS absolutely needed to run the bike, which are : RR, ignition switch, starter solenoid, enricher on carb, battery, stator, cdi, starter.

I used a paper clip to jump the main harness plug with what would have been the brake switch connection ( I couldnt figure out another way to get bike to start when I used the kick start) and then removed after it started.

I then tested THE PLUG at the far end of the harness where the taillight connects - and I got these values on the orange, l.blue, , y/g, and y wires.

This is what has confused me for two days straight after assuming it had to be the main harness and finding that it was not.

I've simply come to the conclusion that the ignition switch and/or RR are both shorting internally ( the black wire feeding the orange and l.blue inside the key switch was a possibility I thought about on looking at the schematic).

Its either that or somehow the entire bike frame is being charged and im reading voltage from the ground wire itself.

I suppose this is just not an issue thats commonly run into.

My luck...

[JR]

I understand perfectly what you did with the harness sections and I also understand the harnesss setup on this scooter. As you said 3 main components, front, back and middle sections.

I don't know if you have actually stripped the outer protective cover off of the middle section and physically inspected the wires to see if the yellow and other 4 wires black, y/g, lbl and orange are melted together or are just checking them with the meter or not.

First of all the key switch has no AC feed from any where unless it's wired wrong. It gets DC voltage via the red wire from the battery. I only know of one possibility for it to get AC fed to it and that's the R/R shorted out internally with the yellow feeding to the red output wire.

So if this has happened then the only way you can have AC to the y/g, lbl and orange wires is the following scenerio or possibilites which would be multiple problems in the system.

(1) R/R is shorted internally and feeding ac via yellow to red then going to key switch
(2) if the front section is unhoooked and except the key switch and you have AC on the mentioned wires then they are melted together in the middle harness section and are being fed by the black wire from the key switch.....or
(3) if you hook up the entire front section harness which would include the turn siganl flasher then if has been fed AC the turn signal flasher unit has shorted out to being fed AC and is sending the AC to the turn signal switch which is also shorted out to send voltage down both the lbl and orange wires.
(4) the only way the y/g can have AC on it is again the R/R is shorted and sending AC to the key switch and with the brake pressed sends the AC down it ........or the y/g is melted together to the black wire from the key switch somewhere in the middle section of the harness.
(5) if you have the emergency flashers and with the front section hooked up if the switch is shorted out and the turn signal flasher is also shorted out and being fed AC due to bad R/R then AC will be on the lbl and orange wires.

MY friend you mentioned a re-wire? Seems like you are headed in that direction.

JR

[godfeast]

The entire night two days back was spent to ripping the harness down to individual wires and checking them by hand.

The harness was fine - thats when real confusion set in.

I'll spend another day rewiring the other two smaller harnesses just to be sure this stops being a possible wiring issue; I've even considered removing the instrument cover and panel all together and just putting a couple gauges on the handlebars instead.

The voltages on orange and l. blue totally threw me for a loop once I started to understand the schematic, as under these conditions, I had to assume as well that there was a harness short but not finding one really set me back.

Is there any possibility that the engine could be getting charged by a bad component with a bad rr involved and that I'm reading positive voltage from the ground side of the meter when testing?

Im heading out to buy an RR right now and we will have to see what changes after that.



TY again btw for the aid. This has been the most frustrating situation to date with this scooter.

*** Would this be the possible scenario if the scooter shop I took this to put in an 8 pole dc stator by accident? I had considered that earlier, but just started thinking about that again and I'm still not sure how to tell for certain *******