headlights dim unless brakes applied By godfeast (Read 9,285 times)

[godfeast]

Ok then; Off with the instrument panel...again.

Grounds were tested (major grounds anyways) and I even cut off and replaced o ring ends - battery to frame just under battery box, then ground at that point to instrument cluster and engine at stator cover.

RR ground checked several times - it is bolted to frame with area underneath scrubbed to remove paint.

I've seriously thought about buying a long strip of household grounding wire (the long mesh they use for the breaker box earth) and using that to ground out the frame, engine, battery, and wiring - that stuff flexes super well and never breaks.

I hadnt considered the bulb socket as a source of issue - that's where I'll focus my search.

If I remove bulbs, would that isolate the bad ground or would I have to cut out the sockets to isolate?

I'd like to remove piece by piece and test as I go to find the bad one.

BTW, I've been on all the major forums and as things go with a device so prone to breaking down , it's really odd that the entire internet only has 3 reliable people that someone can come to for real help on these scooters.

Thank you for being one of them JR; without you, Sprocket, and Alley, many of us would simply be forced to move on to other transportation.

[tvnacman]

Dec 1, 2012 9:26:47 GMT -6 tvnacman said:

you have a ground for the brake lights and for the headlights . sounds like a back feed , the grounds are all soldered to one main green wire in the harness . I bet if you trace the headlight ground you will find a problem where it connects to . Connect a frame ground and to the headlight ground problem solved .

John

?
JR and I spoke about Sprocket today

[JR]

Don't give up Godfeast, sometimes one comes upon one of these reall head scratchers and you just have to eliminate all the common things and when that fails dig a little deeper until you find it.

JR

[justbuggin2]

try checking the turn signals next if you remove the bulb you can push the wires through the socket to check them the spring that holds pressure on the bulb can come in contact with the wires and cause problems as they are cheaply made

[godfeast]

I had run a ground directly to the lights and the yellow feed directly to them as well, bypassing the harness.

It didnt seem to help- will check again when everythings off.

[godfeast]

I havent been able to fix this issue. I was just running with the brake handle slightly depressed to have headlights, then evidently the rectifier decided to go completely out, stopped charging and was putting a full 30v ac to the headlights (bulbs blew of course along with all dash lights).

I am using a back up rectifier, ran a ground line directly from the negative battery post to the main ground connection of the instrument panel dash, and now headlight high beam runs but tailight blows out AS SOON as I replace it.

Im lost here, so I was wondering about jerry rigging a fix. Maybe turning bike over to pure dc power, but for now maybe just tryiing to get headlights to work.

What would your ideas to a fix be?

Can I just run direct lines to the stator for headlight/tailight ground/power ( rectifier on the line too of course)?

Would attaching a large capacitor in line help at all? Would attaching a regulator in line just for the lights isolate and fix the headlight problem?

Both solutions?

Others?


*** second question - does anyone know what length of magnet wire to buy if I decide to take the old non working 8 pole stator and rewind it to dc?

[JR]

Godfeast I have no doubt that you have a wiring issue, no way the head lights should come on with the brakes pressed, if so then that means you are feeding them off the battery on the brake light circuit which is too much load for it to handle.

In answer to your questions a DC stator conversion is neither cost effective nor will it solve an incorrect wiring problem and that's what you have. IMO you need to open this scooter up and trace out the wiring issues. Here is a digram to follow, even if the wire colors don't totally match if you use this diagram the scooter with it's present system will work fine as long as you have a good stator and R/R. The dead givaway of incorrect wiring is headlights on with brakes pushed and tail lights blowing when installed due to too much AC. When the R/R is unplugged or out bulbs blow.



Now the DC stator conversion is covered here and it's not as simple as rewiring the stator and one must also buy a full wave R/R to make the system work plus again wire the scooter to match, here is the instructions from our tech library:

thescooterprofessor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=elec&action=display&thread=1398

I would suggest you consider a 11 pole upgrade, we recently had a member here who like you was about to pull his hair out and he did this upgrade with success and now is very happy, here is the instructions again from our library:

thescooterprofessor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=elec&action=display&thread=297

Even with this system the head/tail lights will have to be rewired acoording to the directions in the help link.

Tvnacman sells this complete set up and lot's of the guys here know the setup well and will be glad to help.

I would still encourage you to go over the wiring on the scooter, simply put it is wrong.

JR

[godfeast]

I was incorrect in that taillight blew - on examining closely it was just very very dim. I replaced taillight with an led bulb and now works.

Headlights work now after the RR exchange and adding that ground , but they still do grow brighter with brakes depressed and I havent even bothered to open up the dash and replace all those bulbs in there yet.

I am sure, as you are all, that theres a wiring issue.

The main concern for me, besides having spent 150 bucks already to have a shop look at it with no good result, is that I have taken the entire harness out four times now and gone over it visually and with a meter; I can find nothing wrong.

*I have made use of the schematics here and have even become somewhat proficient at reading them at this point ( woot inadvertent education!).

I swapped out the instrument dash right after they put in the new stator, so I wont say its not a wiring issue there, but I'd have to have really bad luck for it to be.

Is it possible that one of the gauges or switches is bad internally and causing this?

I'm just out of ideas as to how to trace this down at this point.

What would be the clues here given that:

1. BIke was fine and running well and lights working fine until it simply died on day.

2.Stator seemed to be fine when taking measurements with a meter and turning the engine over - but wasnt getting enough spark to start (assuming bad pickup).

Stator swap started bike up but that lights didnt function without brake handles depressed at this point and it seemed RR wasnt working correctly - swapped in both new stator and RR.



3. Instrument dash and its internal harness swapped out (used but assuming good parts).

4. Harness after many inspections seems to be correctly wired with no shorts (tested seven ways to sunday , four times outside of bike).

I suppose I could just rip out all the wiring, buy some rolls from the local electronics store and just hardwire all the electronics to it bypassing even the plugs -be a pain to replace stuff, but that may be my option if nothing else.

I'd like to be able to just isolate the lighting circuit from the harness all together and maybe just tap into the stator wires near the stator PRIOR to any other branching and then run that to its own independent RR.

Wouldn't this work? I mean, the fuse isnt blowing, the batteries charging, and I can live without instrument lights.

*And no, Im not ignoring the advice to do this right, but at this point I've lost nearly two full weeks of work and two hundred bucks because of this issue and if it continues I'll be out of a job soon with no savings.

I have to get this running one way or the other asap.

[JR]

Check the grounds on the headlight and tail light bulb sockets. Pressing the brake and them getting brighter is s sign of the ground from the brake light bulb back feeding to the tail light side which will also effect the head lights.

Do you have the engine and the stator grounded properly?

JR

[godfeast]

Yes. I have everything grounded and then ran additional grounds as well just as a precaution.

Is it possible that the brake handles can be the source of the issue?

I took apart the taillight yesterday when I placed the led in and checked everything - it all seemed secure. I'm not sure if just unplugging the taillights would be a good check or not.

The head light harness I also took apart and replaced one socket as it seemed shady(didnt show a short when tested, but had to make sure).

I will still go out in a few here and retest them individually anyways if this is thee case.

*** also, if this for certain isolates the issue to this small part of the circuit, shouldnt I be able to just rewire this part and have it fixed? I'm still concerned that the brake handles might be playing a prt, but I have no idea as to how I can check that. ****

[JR]

If you look at the wiring circuit you'll see that the brake light handles get 12Vdc positive from the key switch with it on. There is no ground or should be no ground wire issue with them.

But when you install any 1157 type bulb in the tail light socket you have 3 circuits all in one. The 1157 type bulb has two filaments one brighter for the brake lights and the other dimmer for the tail lights. Of coure the bulb housing or socket is metal and it's the 3rd part of the circuit in a ground.

I have seen these cheap sockets not make good contact on the bulb socket and sometimes when you engage the brake light it completes the ground side of both the brakes and the tail lights. Remember the tail lights is on the same circuit as the head lights.

Now I've also seen these sockets so bad that a person puts the bulb in where the little ears of the bulb are on and actually twist them too far around, they are designed to go so far and lock. If you place the bulb in the wrong side or 180 degrees off then the bulb won't push down and lock in place at all.

What happens is when the bulb goes too far around the end soldier contacts on the bulb one for brakes and one for tail lights will cross over on both circuits thus putting them together just like if you jumped them with a wire. Now if this happens then when you press the brakes you are joining direct battery power with the AC power form the R/R via the yellow wire.

Also these bulb sockets like other ones have a spring on the bottom that puts pressure on the plastic terminal holder that the bulb contacts rest on. I've seen these springs when pressed move over and make contact with either or both bulb terminals in the plastic bottom. If this happens then you are grounding out the tail or could even do so on the brake light circuit. Grounding out no manner how little will dim your lights and eventually burn up the R/R.

These are some other things to look for.

JR

[godfeast]

Oh shit, I think I caused a greater problem then.

I replaced the taillight with an led light and connected both the brake light and taillight lines to the positive feed, figuring I could get double duty from the light by doing that.

MEH

Today was the first day I actually rode the bike and headlights blew half way to work - now I know why.

I'll remove the brake line from the led , try to find replacement headlight bulbs locally, and give this a go again tomorrow or monday.

I assumed that the issue we were talking about was a green ground line getting shorted to a power line of some sort - kept wondering why the fuse didnt blow...

It seems I've learned just enough about electronics at this point to be able to maximize my own damage potential.

[JR]

You have now diagnosed your problem, you are mixing the AC from the head/tail light circuit to the brake light 12Vdc circuit, system is totally confused.

The LED will be brighter than the standard 1157 bulb you just need to seperate the circuits, let's hope you haven't fired the R/R, doesn't sound like it because you blew the headlight bulbs?

Simply put Godfeast you need to check out those tail/brake light bulb sockets and make sure they are making proper contact with each circuit on the bulb and wire it according to the diagram above.

JR

[godfeast]

I hope I'm not in the market for a new RR as well. Bike didnt seem to be charging - had to kick start after I stopped to look at the blown lights.

I guess we will see. I'm not sure if this is the only issue, since I just did this yesterday as a continuing part of my "fix".

The issue was happening before, but after running that extra ground from the instrument panel dash and replacing the lights, they were coming on without the brake handle being depressed.

I guess its a 50/50 shot at this point.

[godfeast]

rectifiers are shot ( both operational new one and my backup) - the "new" one is putting out no voltage on the yellow line and my old "baCKUP" RR is putting out a full 35+ ac v on both yellow and white.

looks like another day of waiting.

Ill keep you posted on what I find after replacing RR/

and I found that the plug prior to entering the taillight harness is showing power to both brake lights and taillights without the brake handles being depressed, so I fear they are crossed somewhere else as well.

Any ideas as to the best place to look would be appreciated.