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Post by aholesmacker on Nov 15, 2012 17:15:31 GMT -6
belts are cheaper than clutches and variators .
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Post by JR on Nov 15, 2012 19:48:48 GMT -6
That's the wrong picture. In this picture you can see the 2 dings, that I was talking about. There are 2 dings on the clutch face plate, and the 2 dings that are on the bell. Like I said, I'm guessing that they are there for balancing. Dan Welcome to the forum Dan.  For sure sir you have had your share of troubles with this shuddering problem and There are those who have helped you a lot namely my good friend Alley. One of the things you may have mentioned but I must have failed to see is that you have the 244cc vertical engine. I was thinking 257cc linhai so if you do indeed have the vertical engine I do believe your belt size is 918. There are 3 versions of this engine if I'm correct and the vertical version on the touring type scooters like the Bali 250 has the 828 length belt. But yours is the long version I do believe. I did say belt wear would cause this but my referal was to the linhai engine. My experience with the linhai has told me that the shuddering will happen with as little as 10% belt wear but the moto version like yours I would not be sure about? I copied your clutch bell picture and put some yellow arrows pointing to the splne teeth;  Now is that just an illusion as in how the picture was made or are there missing teeth on this clutch bell? If that is missing teeth then your clutch bell is nearly stripped and it may have even buggered up the main shaft? Let me know and if it's just an illusion then we'll throw out some more ideas. JR |
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Post by damorg5623 on Nov 15, 2012 22:37:16 GMT -6
JR,
Wow, after looking at that posted picture I had to go and check it out for myself.
I was relieved when everything looked OK.
Apparently it looks as if there are missing teeth becuase the lousy photograper took the picture at a bad angle.
Dan
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Post by JR on Nov 16, 2012 7:03:16 GMT -6
Ok that's one possible problem out of the way. So let's start with the new variator. Does it or does it not have grease on the roller weights? Again this is the vertical 244cc engine?
Now on this clutch I don't know of any avenue that Alley and you didn't go over so I'll leave this out. But here is a possible problem that has happened to others and it's the back wheel splines that go on the main shaft. The wheel is cast aluminum and the splined shaft is hard steel.
Wheels especially ones that have a loose main nut will wear and the splines will eat up in a way that the wheel will slip on the shaft mainly at low torque start off speeds, it's another possibility to check.
JR
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Post by JR on Nov 17, 2012 12:29:22 GMT -6
I agree with JLee on Contestant #1. It shows the signs of a dead short in the starter motor windings. The giveaway is it runs when kickstarted, but still drains the battery, even when sitting. It's dangerous to simply change to a heavier guage wire without knowing what the current measurement is, or if it is overcurrenting. Doing so would invite MORE current flow, thus frying the battery or starter relay. I can't find the wire diagram, but I assume it's fused? That's the only thing that doesn't make sense. If it is, why no fuse blown? I'll also agree with the starter either being internally shorted or the main lead being shorted out but that has nothing to do with the battery draining and it not chargiing. JR |
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Post by JR on Nov 17, 2012 12:30:32 GMT -6
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Post by alleyoop on Nov 17, 2012 15:06:51 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum DAN   , Like I said I will not get involved and let the rest of these turkeys figure it out, my brain hurts so I will sit back and  Alleyoop |
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Post by JR on Nov 17, 2012 21:26:46 GMT -6
my brain hurts  
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Post by justbuggin2 on Nov 17, 2012 21:33:26 GMT -6
Jr that is just mean
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Post by tvnacman on Nov 18, 2012 7:05:29 GMT -6
gee can I be the next contestant .
John
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Post by JR on Nov 18, 2012 7:24:35 GMT -6
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Post by damorg5623 on Nov 21, 2012 14:23:41 GMT -6
Hey Guys,
I saw a video on U-Tube about how to service your Variator, and the guy who made this video said to clean out ALL of the grease.
So, that is one of the very first things that I did. I had thought that the rollers were getting stuck in it, but after I had cleaned out ALL of it, it made NO difference in the shuddering. That was way back in August 2012
I had sent the same pictures that I posted on here, to Goldenvale/Roketa, along with one that was too large to post on this site.
After several days, I received a telephone call from a guy there named Chrys. He said that their top mechanic had looked over my pictures, and after reviewing them, along with reading the many e-mails that I had sent to Goldenvale/Roketa with regards to my Shuddering problems, he had come to the conclusion that my original clutch seemed to look OK.
I was questioning whether or not those 3 little rubber bumpers/stops that sit on the 3 little studs, which seem to lock the clutch arms in place when they aren't being engaged, were too big, causing the clutch arms to be stuck a bit and requireing a great deal of force to get them released whn the needed to be. I had measured them and they measured 11mm. The reason that I was questioning their size, is that they seem to be really pinched when the clutch arms were completely seated. This meant that when the clutch arms needed to be released, it took a great deal of energy (RPM's) to get them free of the rubber bumpers/stops.
Anyway, he said that they were the correct size.
Now he did mention that the metal studs that they were seated on, the studs that are pressed in to the face plate of the clutch, looked as if they might be to tall and maybe sanding a few mm off of them might help.
I however, don't agree with that.
He also suggested that since I had the clutch ALL apart, I should lightly lube the pivot posts of the clutch arms with some lithium grease.
I had already done that, along with lubing the little rubber rollers, as well as the slots that are cut in to the underside of the clutch arms.
I am now awaiting a 1-5/8" impact socket that I ordered off of e-bay, so that I can tighten the BIG nut back up, and then put the original clutch assy. which I had removed when I received the replacement one from Goldenvale/Roketa back on my Scooter.
I need to mention that I have been riding this Scooter daily, trying to ignore the way that this clutch slams in to gear, when i take off from a stop.
It seems to do it mostly once the scooter is warmed up, after about 10-12 miles. On these cold mornings that we've been having lately here in Baltimore, my Scooter has been riding... OK, I guess.
The clutch slams in to the bell (I guess that's what's slamming) and off I go. It only does this occasionally, or maybe I should say that my Scooter takes off perfect... ocassionally? It seems to have a lot to do with how quickly I get the rpm's up.
This is really nuts. I know that my Scooter isn't supposed to work like this, yet I might just have to learn to live with it because I/We can't figure out what's causing it to do what it does.
My original clutch shuddered terribly, until I lubed it up really good.
This replacement clutch doesn't shudder so much as it slams in to gear.
The mail lady, excuse me... Mail Person, just delivered the 1-5/8" impact socket that I had ordered, so I am ready to tighten up the BIG nut.
I had to make the rounds to all of the neighborhood auto repair shops trying to find one that had a socket this big, so that I could get it loosened.
Now I have my very own.
I will try to install the original clutch tomorrow or the next day, and then I'll take a look at the replacement clutch that Goldenvale/Roketa sent to me.
I'll let you ALL know how it goes.
I can't thank you enough for ALL of the help and for ALL of the suggestions that I have received from this forum, and especially the Scooter Doc forum.
I have learned so much trying to figure out this problem. Even though I didn't learn exactly what was causing this problem, I still learned all about scooter clutches and variators.
So, I Thank you ALL.
I hope that you ALL have a GREAT Thanksgiving Holiday!!!
I'll be in touch.
Dan
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Post by alleyoop on Nov 21, 2012 14:33:16 GMT -6
Nice write up Dan, and to you and your family have a great Holiday.
Alleyoop
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Post by JR on Nov 22, 2012 7:21:13 GMT -6
I wish I had caught the socket thing Dan before you bought it, one can tighten this nut with a simple bench vise and strap.
I'm not wanting to put a damper on things but I still do not believe in any way the problem is the clutch and even the man from Roketa agrees. Reason is there is no stone left unturned of the things you've tried and if it was the clutch all the things you have done including replacing it with a new one would have cured it.
Now that you say it's slamming, I'm convinced more and more that you have something in the tranny gears slipping under high torque load when taking off or again as I mentioned the splines on the rear wheel that go on the main shaft are worn or nearly gone and if this is the case the problem will only get worse.
This has happened to people before and the results are like you're describing. If you have a impact it only takes a few minutes to unbolt the things necessary to get the wheel off and check.
If the wheel splines are messed up again due to the fact they are cast aluminum which makes them easy to strip continuing to ride the scooter with this problem will result in a damaged main shaft that you'll have to tear the tranny apart to fix.
Good luck and we'll stay with you until this is solved.
Happy Thanksgiving.
JR
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Post by damorg5623 on Dec 5, 2012 15:53:00 GMT -6
Hey There,
I've been busy riding my Scooter so I haven't checked out this site lately.
I have seen the video where the guy uses a bench vise and oil filter wrench to losen that big nut. I don't have a bench vise, nor was I able to find anyone who did. I purchased a BIG 1 5/8" socket on e-bay for $7.99 plus shipping, for a total of around $13.00
It's a pretty nice socket I guess, it did the job with NO problem at all.
I said that I had been busy riding, and that's the truth. Ever since I took my clutch all the way apart, sanded down the clutch pad arm studs, and lubed them, and the little tiny rollers that sit underneath of them, I've had NO more problems with my scooter shuddering.
Everytime that I take off now, my scooter takes off as smooth as silk!
It has been almost two weeks, and about 30 miles since I did this.
If I can still say the same thing on the first of January 2013, then I'll believe that the problems been solved. In the mean time, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Now, the clutch that they sent to me as a replacement is the one that had the slamming problem. My original clutch, which is the clutch that I have installed presently, only had the Shuddering problem.
The clutch with the slamming problem is currently sitting ALL apart on my work bench. Eventually I am going to do the same things that I did to my original clutch, and see if that helps the slamming problem as well.
Anyway, thanks for ALL of your help, for ALL of your advice, and for your concerns.
I will keep you and everyone else who is interested, updated as to how my Scooter is handling, if and when GOD forbid, the shuddering returns.
Dan
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
