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Post by JR on May 2, 2012 4:20:35 GMT -6
Good question? If the R/R is totally bad then it will allow all the voltage on the stator to go to the headlights. We need to look at the CDI and coil and the stator itself once you get the scooter. You'll need to charge the battery and we'll do voltage tests on the stator wires.
If the stator is good and putting out the proper voltage and you have it wired right, you don't even need a battery at all, it will kick start. The CDI gets it's voltage from the stator. Did you change the original CDI when you changed the old motor out?
This is very odd indeed and the camera will for sure be needed so I can see what you have to where.
JR
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Post by godfeast on May 2, 2012 11:26:12 GMT -6
I had three "used but working" cdi's in my parts box and its about a 25% shot that the cdi was changed ( I was hoping for an easy parts swap fix when the original issue occurred).
The coil is new/was new however, as it was changed first when the scooter went down; condition now is unknown.
Im charging the battery at an auto store today and may be able to test the new stator in bike even before I can manage to tow it home.
I'll check as much of the electrical system as I can (I have a pdf on testing a scoots ignition system and its fairly easy to follow).
Finding a cheap tow service for bikes around here is proving problematic, but at least I have a few days off to do this in.
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Post by alleyoop on May 2, 2012 11:42:15 GMT -6
Get some pictures BRO, of the stator wires and CDI and COIL and Regulator/Rectifier. All that shit has to match up otherwise lots of problems.
Alleyoop
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Post by JR on May 2, 2012 12:28:13 GMT -6
Nothing is cheap!  Don't know what PDF you have but here is how the system works, hooks up and the readings you should have:  This next diagram by Sprocket details what wire does what and the voltage readings you should have on a GY-6 stator 6 or 8 pole;  Lastly this is how the typical AC powered CDI hooks up on a 150cc scooter;  Now what is concerning me now is the 50Vac you say you are getting on the light feed wire. 50Vac to 100Vac is what the red/black fed wire to the CDI puts out, no way you should have this much voltage to the R/R from any stator wire or to the headlights. And if it blew the bulbs to the headlights it should have done the same to the tail lights, they both feed off of the same circuit. Again you've got something really wrong here. JR |
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Post by godfeast on May 3, 2012 10:12:11 GMT -6
I'm having issues getting out to the bike to tow it, hopefully I'll have it in hand by tomorrow. I'll pull out the harness and start looking for shorts, as well as putting that 5 pin rectifier back in (if it doesnt matter, ill use what I have to cut shipping delays down). I think I'm just confusing myself more, and I see that you dont think the stator is an issue, but just to clarify, if the stator plugs up correctly with exact matches on the wiring, am I to understand that either a. it doesnt matter if the stator has a floating ground? or B. no 8 pole stators have floating grounds? In re to: First of all the engine is not set up for DC, never was. The scooter stator puts out AC and is converted to DC by the R/R. I ask because I've been researching in my idle time to try to understand my issue more. Ive run across tons of pages devoted to mods to 11 pole dc run headlights with talk about floating the ground needed on stators to get dc to the headlights. I just want to make sure that it isnt necessary to pull the new stator out to check for this floating ground if I dont have to. I'd like to start being able to check off things from the troubleshooting list if possible and I still dont have a firm idea of whats going on atm - if the stator can be ignored and I just need to focus on having an "ac cdi" that functions, a good coil, good 4 or 5 pin rectifier, a good battery, and no shorts in the harness. This seems to be the checklist as I understand it at least. |
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Post by godfeast on May 3, 2012 10:15:40 GMT -6
I'm having issues getting out to the bike to tow it, hopefully I'll have it in hand by tomorrow. I'll pull out the harness and start looking for shorts, as well as putting that 5 pin rectifier back in (if it doesnt matter, ill use what I have to cut shipping delays down). I think I'm just confusing myself more, and I see that you dont think the stator is an issue, but just to clarify, if the stator plugs up correctly with exact matches on the wiring, am I to understand that either a. it doesnt matter if the stator has a floating ground? or B. no 8 pole stators have floating grounds? In re to: First of all the engine is not set up for DC, never was. The scooter stator puts out AC and is converted to DC by the R/R. I ask because I've been researching in my idle time to try to understand my issue more. Ive run across tons of pages devoted to mods to 11 pole dc run headlights with talk about floating the ground on stators to get dc to the headlights. My local "scooter repair mechanic", if you can call her that (lol), also seems to think that just the act of putting in an 8 pole stator can push too much juice through the harness and short the wiring out; Im not sure I trust that comment though. I just want to make sure that it isnt necessary to pull the new stator out to check for this floating ground if I dont have to. I'd like to start being able to check off things from the troubleshooting list if possible and I still dont have a firm idea of whats going on atm - if the stator can be ignored and I just need to focus on having an "ac cdi" that functions, a good coil, good 4 or 5 pin rectifier, a good battery, and no shorts in the harness. This seems to be the checklist as I understand it at least. |
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Post by JR on May 3, 2012 11:31:55 GMT -6
The stock 6-pole stator is actually a very simple device. There are 6 windings total. 5 of these windings are wired together in series and are responsible for charging your battery and supplying power to your headlights & auto-choke. Positive voltage flows from the stator through the the yellow and white wires. The green wire is ground back to the stator. It must be noted that these three wires are completely isolated from the ignition system. You can unplug the 3-prong stator wires harness and the engine will still fire up just fine. The 6th winding wrapped up in white layering seems to be dedicated to supplying the CDI with AC power and is usually a red/black wire. The blue/white wire leading to the black magnetic pickup is called the trigger wire. This wire is responsible for telling the CDI when to send power to the ignition coil, firing the spark plug.  This picture is a 8-pole stator. The 6 and 8 pole stators are similar in function, the key difference being that the 8 pole stator as 2 additional poles dedicated to charging. Floating the ground refers to converting the stator from AC to DC by just doing that and the stator has to be modifed to do it and then you have to have a different R/R that is a DC one too. Even if you convert the Stator to a floating ground and DC system it still has nothing to do with the scooter running as the CDI is fired from the white winding and is AC and again you can unplug he three charging wires to the R/R and the scooter will run if the stator is working right. A DC powered CDI runs off of the battery and the stator will not have the white winding and only the trigger wire going to the CDI and the CDI will get it's power from the battery. Your check list; Verify you have a CDI like in the picture and the following wire colors Green red/black black/yellow red/white black/white Stator single wires are plugged up right on the two single bullet connector wires going to the CDI black/red plugs into red/black blue/white or red/white is plugged into red/white Coil has black/yellow going to CDI and green = ground. Check voltage on the wires and take readings and compare to diagram above. yellow white red/black blue/white or red/white I only told you to charge the battery to make it easier to turn the engine over to test voltages you don't even need a battery to run on a AC system. JR |
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Post by alleyoop on May 3, 2012 12:06:02 GMT -6
Very nicely explained JR, very simple to understand you should add that to the tech section if not already there.
Alleyoop
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Post by godfeast on May 3, 2012 13:42:07 GMT -6
The stock 6-pole stator is actually a very simple device... The 6th winding wrapped up in white layering seems to be dedicated to supplying the CDI with AC power and is usually a red/black wire... A DC powered CDI runs off of the battery and the stator will not have the white winding and only the trigger wire going to the CDI and the CDI will get it's power from the battery. Is it possible to tell if a stator that has been setup for dc by its wiring then? I assume this means the red/black wire will be missing and the harness (if the bike is setup for dc headlights) will have a feed from the battery directly to the cdi? ------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Today I followed up on a craigslist post and was able to strip parts off an old longbo similar to mine ( pulled a solid looking 6 pole stator, its cover, and cdi off the bike as well as its main wiring harness) for cheap. He didnt have a rectifier, so still planning on using my 5 pin one. These posts all seem to indicate that the stator issue shouldn't be the cause of the bike not running as long as its putting out the correct power to the cdi to fire off the coil and if the timing is correct from the pickup. Is that correct? I have charged the battery as well and I am about to head out to the bike to see if I can get it running enough to get home where I can actually do work on it.
I'll leave the rectifier unplugged, as well as the 3 wires from the stator, since you say these arent needed for running. I have all LED taillights and turn signals, so hopefully that wont drain the battery in 20 minutes. =============== ============= update ============== ============= I got a ride out to the bike, put the battery in with a new cdi and after a few moments it fired up and I got half way home before it died again - oddly. It slowly looses power then dies, not choking out or anything, and after looking at the engine case it seems it has pushed all the oil out of the valve cover and overheated. It seems I have a much more problematic issue than lights to deal with first. I hadnt had any issues like this in a while and its setup with a long hose and catch can from the valve cover. I just replaced the head and spent an entire day checking the timing and valve clearances before these electrical issues came up. Somedays you just cant cut a break.  I also found the cdi that had come with the new engine ( all this stuff was in an old box in storage) and it is larger and has tinier pins spaced differently than my other ones. I need to keep track of my repairs better, but even without double checking. I'm going to backtrack and stick the 6 pole I just pulled into it and just order a new 4 pin rectifier. I have a feeling with all the oil blowing out and the scooter overheating, that I may be looking at more damage than I can handle ( begging rides from co-workers only goes on for so long before you become a pariah, |
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Post by godfeast on May 4, 2012 10:16:12 GMT -6
Pictures as asked for: new engine rectifier  old rectifier  connection wires from new 8 pole stator  8 pole stator in engine still  6 pole stator pulled from wreck thats identical to my old stator (checked)  "new engine" from last years cdi  comparison of "new" cdi compared to the old cdi - its larger  |
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Post by tvnacman on May 4, 2012 10:43:49 GMT -6
It seems as cdi's have the extra plastic on the plugs for extra harness plugs.
John
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Post by JR on May 4, 2012 12:02:29 GMT -6
The stock 6-pole stator is actually a very simple device... The 6th winding wrapped up in white layering seems to be dedicated to supplying the CDI with AC power and is usually a red/black wire... A DC powered CDI runs off of the battery and the stator will not have the white winding and only the trigger wire going to the CDI and the CDI will get it's power from the battery. Is it possible to tell if a stator that has been setup for dc by its wiring then? I assume this means the red/black wire will be missing and the harness (if the bike is setup for dc headlights) will have a feed from the battery directly to the cdi? ------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Today I followed up on a craigslist post and was able to strip parts off an old longbo similar to mine ( pulled a solid looking 6 pole stator, its cover, and cdi off the bike as well as its main wiring harness) for cheap. He didnt have a rectifier, so still planning on using my 5 pin one. These posts all seem to indicate that the stator issue shouldn't be the cause of the bike not running as long as its putting out the correct power to the cdi to fire off the coil and if the timing is correct from the pickup. Is that correct? I have charged the battery as well and I am about to head out to the bike to see if I can get it running enough to get home where I can actually do work on it.
I'll leave the rectifier unplugged, as well as the 3 wires from the stator, since you say these arent needed for running. I have all LED taillights and turn signals, so hopefully that wont drain the battery in 20 minutes.=============== ============= update ============== ============= I got a ride out to the bike, put the battery in with a new cdi and after a few moments it fired up and I got half way home before it died again - oddly. It slowly looses power then dies, not choking out or anything, and after looking at the engine case it seems it has pushed all the oil out of the valve cover and overheated. It seems I have a much more problematic issue than lights to deal with first. I hadnt had any issues like this in a while and its setup with a long hose and catch can from the valve cover. I just replaced the head and spent an entire day checking the timing and valve clearances before these electrical issues came up. Somedays you just cant cut a break. I also found the cdi that had come with the new engine ( all this stuff was in an old box in storage) and it is larger and has tinier pins spaced differently than my other ones. I need to keep track of my repairs better, but even without double checking. I'm going to backtrack and stick the 6 pole I just pulled into it and just order a new 4 pin rectifier. I have a feeling with all the oil blowing out and the scooter overheating, that I may be looking at more damage than I can handle ( begging rides from co-workers only goes on for so long before you become a pariah, The bigger CDI you have pictured I have never seen? 8 total pins? If it is DC I still don't have a clue to how the scooter was running unless someone has powered it from the battery and since your battery dies in about 10 miles I'm suspecting this but why? If this is the case then a fully charging system with a good hot battery is a must, dead batteries won't power a DC CDI. But where is your black/red wire running too? Here is a comparision of the DC and AC CDI;  Here is the schematic of how a AC powered CDI works;  Here is the DC powered CDI setup;  Long story short you have been sold mismatched stuff even the 5-pin R/R wasn't necessary the old 4-pin will do just fine. I would use the smaller AC powered CDI and trace each wire on the plugs and make sure they plug into the spots on the diagram I posted earlier. If the stator is good along with the CDI and coil it will run right off of the stator. No battery needed it will kick start. JR |
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Post by godfeast on May 4, 2012 13:52:49 GMT -6
Chinese parts mismatched? NEVER!
lol
I was kind of thinking along those lines too after sitting down and double checking the lines while taking pictures and reading over the posts.
Thank you for the in depth schematics and explanation too - these went a long way towards helping me understand the whole ac/dc thing on these bikes.
The larger dc cdi was never used, I just had it packed away since it wouldnt fit my plugs.
I think I will leave the 8 pole in as it did run the bike fine until the bike lost all its oil.
I'm focusing on getting the top end tight, then I"ll come back to switching out the harness and troubleshooting from there if needed.
Thank you again.
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Post by godfeast on May 11, 2012 19:20:10 GMT -6
Scooters up and running fine now. I left the new 8 pole in, used a working cdi and the new black rectifier. I'm almost embarrassed by this, but after having reread this thread, something said by JR struck home, to wit "Now what is concerning me now is the 50Vac you say you are getting on the light feed wire. 50Vac to 100Vac is what the red/black fed wire to the CDI puts out, no way you should have this much voltage to the R/R from any stator wire or to the headlights." I was about to do a harness swap anyways, so I went out and slowly over 2 hours, checked along the lines for anything suscipicous until I noticed something odd... On the sunl adventure aka longbo the harness plugs for both the rectifier and the headlight harness are both female 4 plug and exactly the same in appearance. I had plugged the headlight harness into the rectifier and the rectifier into the headlight harness, so I was indeed feeding 50v ac to my headlights, but not exactly due to a short, OMG...  Thank you JR and everyone else for helping me to learn a lot more about scooters in general and for providing the insight that allowed me to get up and running again! |
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Post by JR on May 11, 2012 20:04:22 GMT -6
Hey don't feel bad at all seriously!! The things learned are invaluable and you need to pat yourself on the back! One you didn't give up and two you came back and let us all know what was wrong and now have the scooter running better than new! You're not the first to make a mistake like this and won't be the last. Now don't be a stranger! Great job!  JR |
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
