Roketa Electronic Catastrophe By ellpee (Read 2,760 times)

[ellpee]

Yup, jumping those two terminals cranks the starter, same as when I use the remote start gizmo. When I use key/brake/button, not so much. As in, not at all. Is that telling me my ignition switch is partially hosed? (It does work at least to the extent of energizing the fuel gauge and turn signals.) Or maybe the circuit that makes sure I've applied the brakes before cranking took a hit?

Really appreciate your patient help, BTW.

[ellpee]

More: just went out and stripped enough of the black sleeving off the solenoid (relay) wire to test the two wires leading into it from wherever. Turned on the ignition switch, held one of the brake handles down with rubber bands, then tested, with a voltmeter and again with one of those tester lights where you just poke a needle point into the wire and connect the other end to a ground. Neither wire showed any current at all. So if I'm following you, that means that, although juice is getting from the battery up to the ignition switch (turn signals and fuel gauge work), no juice is making it from there (or actually from the brake levers, I guess) back to the solenoid. Just spent a few minutes studying the wiring diagram and vaguely understand how it all connects, but no idea what to do now.

[JR]

You're on the right track. Now that you know you have no voltage coming from the brake switch it's time to start the process of elimination so here we go.

(1) The brake light switches are fed from the black wire coming from the key switch to the fuse box and back and both brake handles will send voltage to the starter relay. Try both brakes left and right and still no voltage then lets move to the possible problems.

(A) both brake light switches are bad (not likely but could be)
(B) fuse in the fuse box is bad or the blade connector socket and/or wiring is bad and not letting voltage pass from the key switch to brake switches (this happens often in Chinese wiring)
(C) broke wire from key switch to fuse box
(D) broke wire from brake light switches or bad connection where they join together.

I'll explain (D) the brake switches are tied together on the input by a 2 to 1 bullet connector, they often come apart or lose good connection the input voltage is a black wire for 12Vdc.

(E) broke output wire from the brake switches or bad connection.

I'll explain (E)_ the output wires just like the input wires are tied together by a 2 to 1 bullet connector and the output wire is green/yellow and it goes to the brake lights........and the starter relay on the positive 12Vdc side.

When you press either brake handle you send 12Vdc to the starter relay and when you press the start button you supply the ground to the starter relay and the engine turns over. It's a safety thing have to have a brake pressed before the scooter starts. The ground or negative side wire is red/yellow.

Now since you told me it'll start with the remote that tells me one of the above problems exists because the remote/alarm start is wired around the key switch system and works independently from the key switch.

Time to pull the front off and trace it down, I'd make sure the fuse box and fuse input voltage is there or not first.

JR

[ellpee]

Makes sense to me, believe it or not. I'll start by checking the fuse box, which is by far the easiest to get to. Seems to me putting my voltmeter probe into each fuse socket and the other to ground covers that -- one side of each socket should have juice if the key-to-fusebox path is good. (Well actually I see one fuse gets its juice from the R/R, whatever that is, but in general ....)

Then I'll move on to the brake circuit. Looking at the wiring diagram, it it appears to me the feeds to both the solenoid and the brake lights are on the same green/yellow wire. If I have that right, when either brake lever is pressed the brake lights should go on. If the lights work on one brake only, that points to one switch only being bad. If they don't go on at all, then the problem has to be somewhere in that path, and since the fusebox tested good, more likely the ignition switch than that both brake switches would be bad. And finally, from the diagram I'm thinking the brake lights should work whether or not the engine is cranking/running, as long as the key is on.

Coinfirmation of all my thinking here will be very welcome.

[randall]

Another suspect would be the side stand switch, if your bike has one. These have pretty flimsy spring contacts and don't survive an over current condition, ie they can burn open easily.

[ellpee]

Just got done with this morning's testing.

--Fuse box is okay; three of the four have battery current on one side of the fuse slot. (Quality of the fuse box isn't very impressive, though.)
--Scoot battery was down to 6.7v this morning for some reason. Took it out to put it on the charger AGAIN, used jumper cable to hook up a deep cycle marine battery for testing.
--Held down first left, then right brake lever with rubber bands (ignition switch on), no brake lights with either.
--Held down first left, then right brake lever with rubber bands (ignition switch on) while cranking, in both cases rear lights lit up, though weakly -- headlights too.

It does appear, therefore, that juice is making it to the rear light assembly from SOME source DURING CRANKING ONLY. I see on the wiring diagram that the low-beam headlights and one side of the taillight bulb draw their juice from a Br (brown?) wire, while the other side of the taillight bulb gets its juice from the famous yellow/green wire off the brake switches. I also note there's a fuse (tested good) specifically for "brakes/horn/gauges," while a different fuse (tested good) that gets its juice from R/R goes "to all lights." (Bear in mind that through all this the horn has never worked under any conditions, even though the the fuel gauge does.)

So, with my Sherlock Holmes hat on I'm now guessing that:

-- The rear lights I'm seeing during crank are taillights driven by the R/R.
-- The path that should feed the brake light and energize the solenoid when either lever is squeezed is compromised somewhere that affects both sides, which means either two bad brake switches (Alleyoop's (a)) or a bad connection or damaged wire at or before the two-to-one connections (Alleyoop's (d) and (e)).

I am puzzled, though, by the gauges-but-no-horn thing. The fuse and fuse slot test OK, so perhaps the horn itself, or the horn button, got hit too? Minor problem compared to the big one, will pursue it separately. Also surprised that even with that gorilla-grade marine battery the scoot wouldn't start this morning, and seemed to be cranking rather feebly. Didn't want to keep trying too long lest I fill up the cylinder with unburned gas.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Errands to run, will do some more dinking around this afternoon; looks like it's time to get behind those front panels. Thanks, randall, for the side stand idea. Don't know if mine has such a switch, see no reference to such on the wiring diagram, but all the above has taken place while on the center stand, so it shouldn't be a factor.

I know I'm learning a lot from this, hope it will benefit other members when it's all done.

[randall]

Jan 29, 2013 9:41:21 GMT -6 ellpee said:

. Thanks, randall, for the side stand idea. Don't know if mine has such a switch, see no reference to such on the wiring diagram, but all the above has taken place while on the center stand, so it shouldn't be a factor.

.

Well, if you have one, it can be a factor when it's up. That's when the switch closes and allows current to flow. If the switch goes bad, which they can do easily since their construction and location are both poor, then it will keep your starter button from being energized.

I think the first thing you should do is tear down the right switch pod and see if you have power at the starter switch when the key is on and the brake depressed. If so, is there also 12 volts on the switched terminal when you depress the button?

[ellpee]

Got lost in the terminology, randall. From previous posts I got the idea that the solenoid, which allows the starter motor to crank, gets (1) its juice from either or both of the brake levers/switches, and its ground from the starter button to complete the circuit and close the solenoid, allowing battery juice through to the starter. So in my simple mind the starter button is never "energized" in the sense that it has positive DC flowing to it. Are you saying the same thing with different words? (I will, though, stand on my head or something and see if I can find any kind of electrical connection to the side stand. As I say, the YY250T wiring diagram makes no reference at all to such a switch.)

As to the second part of your post, "right switch pod," "starter switch," and "switched terminal" confuse me. If I translate those things as "electrical switch at right brake lever," "ignition switch," and "solenoid," have I got it right? If not, I'll need you to baby-step me through what you mean.

Mid-afternoon progress report, though. Tried to start the scoot using the remote (ignition switch on), cranks but no start, although it has started a couple of times before. HOWEVER, I discovered that the button that flashes the high-beam headlight works, telling me its juice comes from the battery, not the R/R. And wa lah, the HORN works, which it has not since the very beginning of this episode. I didn't change a darn thing, so the horn was a real surprise. THEREFORE, the circuit and fuse that feed brakes/horn/gauges is live, with battery power, and the latter two items are working but apparently not the brakes. Really starting to look like an issue with one or both brake switches or the connections between them and the solenoid. More news before bedtime, but will be checking here for any further tips.

[randall]

Disassemble the handlebar pod containing the starter switch. Connect one side of your volt meter to the battery ground negative terminal and connect the other side of your meter to one or the other of the electrical connections on the back of the switch. With the handbrake depressed, you should see 12 volts on one of the switch connections and then with the starter switch depressed too, you should see 12 volts on the other connection, at which point the starter should also spin, but.... We'll see, eh?

Be sure your ignition key is on.

Doing this will confirm that the brake handle switches are both OK and the starter switch is OK. let us know if there is a side stand switch.

[JR]

Nope this scooter has no side stand switch. Power to the starter/solenoid relay comes from either brake light switch. If the brake lights do come on when pressed then it's simple:

(1) bad solenoid/starter relay
(2) bad connection on the green/yellow wire feeding starter relay where it ties in on the green/yellow wire going to the brake lights.

or

(3) bad start button and/or kill switch

Now I'll explain first of all you can eliminate the starter relay by a simple method, unplug it and place the red/yellow on the negative post of the battery and place the green/yellow on the positive side, if the engine turn over then good relay and since you told me that it will turn over with the remote I'm sure the relay is good.

Now the start button as I stated when pushed supplies the ground to the starter relay through the red/yellow wire so if the start button is bad or the red/yellow wire is broke, no start.

One can test this easily with your meter set on ohms or by using your 12Vdc test light.

Hook one wire of the test light to the positive post of the battery, hook the other wire to the red/yellow wire, press start button, if light comes on then all is fine.

Using your meter set it to ohms put one lead on the negative side of the battery the other to the red/yellow wire, push the button should get full ohms resistance.

If you do not then you have on of these problems


Bad start button
Broke red/yellow wire or bad connection
Broke ground wire feed to the start button

Yes the tail lights only come on when the engine is running. They along with the headlights are on one of the fuses in the fuse box that DOES NOT feed off of the battery from the key switch, total separate circuit.


As you said time to open her up.

JR

[alleyoop]

At this point we know the SOLENOID(RELAY) is good since it does turn the starter using the remote so that is out of the picture. Now here is another thing using a remote isn't there a sequence you have to follow before being able to just us the KEY ON and squeezing the brakes and start button menthod? I remember reading that there is a sequence you have to follow otherwise using the none remote method does not work it shuts it off.
Alleyoop

[JR]

Easiest thing is to unplug the remote and take it out of the equation.

JR

[ellpee]

As my day draws to a close, I'm sort of in the waiting-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop mode, because -- ready for this? -- the scoot is up and running in all respects. As I wrote earlier, the horn magically came back to life this morning, and I discovered that the switch to flash the high beams also worked, both even with motor not running. That seems logical, as both feed off the battery, not the R/R. At that point, though, the scooter would crank but not start. (Juice at that point was from the big marine battery, not the little scoot battery.)

In the afternoon I reexamined some of the connections I had previously checked, just to reassure myself that I knew what I knew. One thing on that list was that the gauges work with key on, and the gas tank was so close to empty that I could barely see the needle move. So I grabbed my little canister and went and got a gallon of gas, came home and poured it into the tank. Key on, needle jumped up to near 3/4, all good; confirmed yet again that the feed from that one fuse was live. So, what the hey, tried the normal key/brake/start button routine, and up she fired! Hmmm, says I, very odd, and shut her down and tried it again a couple times, started again. Checked the brake lights with engine running, and sure enough they worked, on both levers. Shut her down, put the scoot battery back in, PAYING GREAT ATTENTION THIS TIME, then tried a normal start again, success. Shut off the engine, ignition on, tried brake levers, brake lights worked with either or both levers even when engine not running.

So, as of bedtime tonight, the scoot seems to be back to 100%, but I have almost absolutely no idea why. Other than replacing some cheap fuses with better ones, and putting in a gallon of gas, I didn't repair or replace much of anything. Can't wait to see what the situation is tomorrow morning. But whatever the case, there's no doubt I know a lot more about the workings of my scoot now than I did three days ago. I will definitely post again here about what the dawn's early light brings.

[alleyoop]

Great, now tomorrow try starting it with the remote and shut if off and then try the manual way.
Alleyoop

[ellpee]

Cool, alleyoop. Still wondering about your trike mod on what otherwise looks like my 250. You must have invested a ton changing a $2k scooter into that fine ride. After busting my a$$ ten days into my own scooter experience, I have a great respect for the three-wheel lifestyle.