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Post by geh3333 on Nov 10, 2014 17:42:31 GMT -6
One of these days I'm gonna install an oil tank with an electric oil pump to constantly rotate a couple quarts or more of oil , I'm thinking this will keep engine temps under 180 degrees " even at high speeds " . I have it all designed , I just need to get the time to do It.
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 7, 2014 8:11:42 GMT -6
One thing I've always done is keep my tires up to 40 psi , although it wares the tires out " well it gives them a flat spot in the center of the rear tire " I do like the how the scoot runs with harder tires . I never thought of the scoot being able to gain up to 3 mph just by removing the cooling system , but after u explained it I'm sure it's possible .
As for the fans , when I first did the mods on my scoot I bought one of the smaller fans and found out real quick they don't cool worth " you know what " . Last yr I saw one like the green one and I decided I wanted to test it out because they made it sound like it was legit . So I bought one so I can post the true effects it has on the engine . But when I received it I knew right away it was junk . First the blades were turned in the opposite direction second while looking down on the blades from the top " if mounted on the scoot " the blades weren't as Long . Although the fan itself was lighter " which at this point wouldn't make a difference " . If I'm not mistaken I didn't even try it on the scoot . Lol
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 3, 2014 19:27:20 GMT -6
I do agree with your statement , these engines do seem to have slight differences in performance from engine to engine . Some may have a 50 mph top end and some may have a 55 mph top end . I've even heard others claim to have a higher top end varified by gps . But from the reaction I've got " mainly by 1 person " 32mm carb with a 125 main is not possible , even though I be been running that setup for about 3 yrs . I can understand the reaction of " how in gods name are you not bogging and running like hell? " but to get a reaction of " your lying " is just ignorant . And that's why there is all of this back and fourth . I was so eager to prove it that after I installed my new variator I went on a run without tuning it in properly and then I posted it without watching it " second mistake " . the vid clearly showed a downhill run even though it looks much worse in the video . That's when I knew I wasn't tuned in properly if I was only hitting 68 on a decline . I figured I'd just get it tuned in and see how she does then instead of deleting the vid , and that's when the 73 mph vid was posted . Was it proof of a 67 mph straight run ? No it wasn't , but I know there are not any other 58.5 modded scoots that I know of that will do 73 down that hill . I was even told by others that there 61 mm bbk scoot would have a hard time hitting 73 on that decline . When it comes down to it , I have a scoot that is burning much more fuel then many others " even with bigger bores " , and without running to rich . Do I know how it's doing this ? Not yet but hopefully soon I will . The extra air and fuel is causing my scoot to run stronger and has givin me very nice top end . Am I bragging ? No , i always only wanted others to know it's possible . However now I know it's best not to just say it's possible but to find out how I was able to pull it off and then share and encourage others to do the same . I'll go back to one thing, I've never said you were lying. I did say the run was not flat therefore it was exaggerated, kind of like the "I went fishing and I caught........."
The problem you run into is when advising others is to remember that for whatever reason and you may never know is to tell them that there are certain things that are a given.
Will gain a little with CVT mods Will gain a little with upjet and better air input Will gain a little with exhaust mods Will gain a little with better ignition system ( I have my doubts on this one but others do not)
Go above these then it's time to add more displacement but even then gains are minimal after all if one does have a standard 57mm piston going to 58.5 and even 61mm isn't very much.
Add some cam help and gain a touch more.
All adds up in the long run but here's where one draws a line in the sand. Are you racing and understand that running this engine WOT with every single mod makes it short lived or are you trying to run the scooter for dependable transportation and want the engine to last?
IMO if you are running it to depend on it then you keep the engine in the parameters that it was designed to run at. One can if they have fairly moderate terrain can fine tune minimally to hold a good highway speed of 55mph with a touch to spare and keep the engine at a lower less stressful RPM and heat range. Heat = enemy of air cooled engine for longevity.
So you asked why does your engine take the bigger carb and run fine? May not ever know. Just yesterday I was talking to Rich and as I mentioned he had two identical engines and he tried adding more fuel and air to his. The more he added the worse it ran and even today with the BBK he finally put on it for fun, he still has a stock carb upjetted slightly.
I gave him some advice on fitting his wife's scooter with sliders and this engine now even runs better especially up the hills again he just put this entire engine set up out of the cheap Bashan into his wife's more expensive Puma and the scooter will haul ass. Other than sliders it's pure stock.
What gets people into trouble when giving upgrade advice is they sometimes forget that what may be working for them very well may not for others. So many parameters can be different not only from one engine to another but we need not forget about people skills which can add one way or another to the spectrum of how something may or may not perform. You have people that are very mechanically inclined and understand things easily and know what to expect when being advised on this engine while others who buy these scooters then learn that they are expected to work on them and the scooter doesn't perform like some dealer online told them or not may not have the skills necessary to do mods in a way that is helpful and in the long run hurt the engine.
It's these people that then come back on a person who told them "this is what I did to my engine and I'm running this fast easily" that will turn on you and call you a idiot for telling them that. I've learned by being on these forums now for over 6 years to ask people one question when they ask anything about these simple scooters and it's this:
What are you trying to do with this scooter?
Lastly I stay away from mentioning things as much on what I've did or haven't done with any of my scooters like I used to. Old Dawg is full of things I tried and have done and some may or may not work for others and I'm not talking about doing things to try to milk every MPH out of the engine that I can. I've found and in this case I would advise you to be clear to people that there are things like above that are a given and beyond that they may find that their scooter is like yours and can even push the envelope more but they may yet find they will never make theirs perform as well as yours does.
BTW just for fun I mentioned that there is two things that you could still do to make this scooter run maybe as much as 3MPH faster, do you know what they are? Give you a hint, you would only do it for one run.
JR
Well I'm probably wrong but I'll throw it out there . I once noticed an increase in my mph through out all rpm ranges and that day I checked my oil level and I wasn't even readin on the dipstick ! So one way would be to run the scoot with little to no oil and after about one top speed run your engine would probably be shot , so that would account for the only one time . Next I would say going on a run in zero degree temps would give you a possible 3 mph increase and trust me I would probably only do it once . Lol |
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 3, 2014 3:36:50 GMT -6
One thing I know that can change the amount of air and fuel that comes in is the Cam. A short duration cam will limit the amount of air and fuel in. that's the reason I'd love to know what cam I'm running . When I ordered mine it was listed as " racing cam " lol . It had no markings or even anything listed in the description when I went back to check . The " racing " cam does make a night and day difference in performance . The scoot is sluggish with the stock cam and lacks top end but I still don't have any bogging with the stock cam . I would expect that even though the racing cam keeps the valves open longer the air to fuel ratio should stay the same . That is with the gy6 200 that's bogging with the 30mm and 115 main , it should still be to much fuel with another cam . You are right about the cam , after I went back and read what I wrote I realized what I said wasn't accurate . If replaced with a cam that's letting in less air and fuel each time the valves open then the air fuel can be adjusted so it's not running to rich . It is possible it's the cam that's letting me use the 32 mm carb , however that dosent account for my mpg dropping from 80+ mpg to 60 and under . I mentioned this before but I figure I'll mention it again . Not long after I first bought my scoot used I bought a new engine to mod . While rebuilding the new engine I noticed that I had 3 different cams , that means both stock engines had 2 different stock cams . They were noticeably different " At least the length of the ramps not the height " . I did notice that the so called racing cam had the longest ramps " meaning that the held the valves open the longest " . Now that I look back I remember thinking that the stock cams must not have been letting enough air and fuel to run properly . When it comes to the scrappy gy6200 , maybe the cams they are using are letting in more air and fuel then my so called racing cam causing the engine to flood with the bigger carb . There would have to be a pretty big difference in the cams we are using to allow me to use a 32 mm and a 125 main jet ., and that engine not even be able to use a 30 mm and a 115 main . |
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 3, 2014 1:16:22 GMT -6
I would like to know how my scoot with the mods I have can take the 32mm with a 125 main jet and the gy6 200 from scrappy cannot ? At least the ones on the sites that have tried . They are bogging with a 30 mm and a 115 main ? I'd love to get my hands on them to find the problem .the only thing I can think of would be contributed to the head , cam and or exhaust . Alley and jr , do you agree the more air and fuel you can put through the engine without running to rich and flooding it , the more hp you will gain ? I do understand there is a limit in which my scoot will begin to bog and run like hell , but I for some reason am able to run more air and fuel then some bigger bored 150's . I understand how you are skeptical " because others have tried and failed , but I did it . If I where you I would want to see how it was possible not just imply that I'm lying because you think it isn't possible . I'll admit maybe I did just get lucky , I bought the mods installed them and never had a prob with the 32 mm carb and 125 main jet . But something with my setup is allowing for more fuel and air to be burned without flooding the engine . I myself would like to know for sure why that is . If I can pinpoint what it is then I can help others get more out of their scoot . I thought it was the bigger style uni I was using but even with that the gy6 200 from scrappy still wouldn't take the extra fuel . So now what , I don't have a supply of heads , cams or exhausts to test . Sometimes one gets a engine that acts different, with no real explanation. Example Rich from Doc owns several scooters and when he first started he bought two identical Bashan scooters for him and his wife. When I say identical I even mean the color. They have since then upgraded to better scooters but he still owns both the Bashans. The engine on the one he got for his wife runs like a BOOH and recently he did one thing to it, changed from rollers to sliders and that' it. he did that as much as to just play with sliders to see the difference everyone was talking about. Again this scooter and engine totally stock will scream, it will leave his Bashan behind and make it look extremely weak, again they are identical.
This engine now with the sliders is so strong that he's putting it in the scooter his wife is now riding which I believe is the Puma?
I'll relate some of my findings of my own and with others. My Bali 150, big heavy touring scooter a 08 model. In 08 things were all over the board. Made friends on old Dawg with harryWr in Washington state. we compared findings on both our Balis. First thing we found is mine had a 842 gates belt stock and his has a 835 Bando, same scooter, same engine, same company hell they are even both Red. My scooter had 14g rollers, his had 13g, not guessing we both weighed them.
Where he lived was in the Mountain area and his Bali even with sliders and all the mods he could do except go to a BBK suffered in the mountains while I could do better with mine. I developed a oil leak on my head and pulled it apart and replaced the head and said what the heck and put rings on it too, had nearly 4k on it so why not? 57mm piston = 150cc. Harry decided to pull his apart because it was losing compression, result? he had a 52mm piston = 125cc. Again these scooters were made at the very same factory. 3 different things on 2 scooters made by the same people. The Chinese back in 08 were notorious for grabbing anything they had on the shelf to put out a scooter.
My 250 linhais, both identical except the name, both Red both equipped identically. My 250B will out pull and outrun my wife's 250A and my 250B has over 15k while her scooter has under 5k? Why? It's possible she has a 68mm piston and mine has the 70mm piston, this engine has been known to come with 3 different size pistons.
Summary? You may have got a scooter like Rich did with one of his Bashans? You might find one exactly like it and find it's not the same, it happens.
So when you ask why does your scooter do fine with the bigger carb and jets that may be the answer? What is the norm is too much more = running poorly. There are so many other things one can find, example when I pulled the head off my Bali I found the muffler pipe flange that is welded on that bolts to the head was half closed to what we welders call sugar. Sugar is metal that appears in a pipe or on the other side of metal opposite of the side you weld on when you weld too hot. I'm also a certified welder. By taking a die grinder and removing this to a nice polished finish I allowed better exhaust flow, better running engine. There are more variables and with the things you did to your scooter you made the engine more efficient.
But the same things you did may or may not work for someone else that has a gy-6 type scooter, too many things that may or may not be different?
JR
I do agree with your statement , these engines do seem to have slight differences in performance from engine to engine . Some may have a 50 mph top end and some may have a 55 mph top end . I've even heard others claim to have a higher top end varified by gps . But from the reaction I've got " mainly by 1 person " 32mm carb with a 125 main is not possible , even though I be been running that setup for about 3 yrs . I can understand the reaction of " how in gods name are you not bogging and running like hell? " but to get a reaction of " your lying " is just ignorant . And that's why there is all of this back and fourth . I was so eager to prove it that after I installed my new variator I went on a run without tuning it in properly and then I posted it without watching it " second mistake " . the vid clearly showed a downhill run even though it looks much worse in the video . That's when I knew I wasn't tuned in properly if I was only hitting 68 on a decline . I figured I'd just get it tuned in and see how she does then instead of deleting the vid , and that's when the 73 mph vid was posted . Was it proof of a 67 mph straight run ? No it wasn't , but I know there are not any other 58.5 modded scoots that I know of that will do 73 down that hill . I was even told by others that there 61 mm bbk scoot would have a hard time hitting 73 on that decline . When it comes down to it , I have a scoot that is burning much more fuel then many others " even with bigger bores " , and without running to rich . Do I know how it's doing this ? Not yet but hopefully soon I will . The extra air and fuel is causing my scoot to run stronger and has givin me very nice top end . Am I bragging ? No , i always only wanted others to know it's possible . However now I know it's best not to just say it's possible but to find out how I was able to pull it off and then share and encourage others to do the same . |
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 3, 2014 0:33:44 GMT -6
One thing I know that can change the amount of air and fuel that comes in is the Cam. A short duration cam will limit the amount of air and fuel in. that's the reason I'd love to know what cam I'm running . When I ordered mine it was listed as " racing cam " lol . It had no markings or even anything listed in the description when I went back to check . The " racing " cam does make a night and day difference in performance . The scoot is sluggish with the stock cam and lacks top end but I still don't have any bogging with the stock cam . I would expect that even though the racing cam keeps the valves open longer the air to fuel ratio should stay the same . That is with the gy6 200 that's bogging with the 30mm and 115 main , it should still be to much fuel with another cam . |
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 31, 2014 23:35:30 GMT -6
THe only problem now is that the temps here are on an average o about 55 degrees here , but I can still show an accurate speedo reading and expect a mph gain or so .
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 31, 2014 23:12:09 GMT -6
I would like to know how my scoot with the mods I have can take the 32mm with a 125 main jet and the gy6 200 from scrappy cannot ? Atleast the ones on the sites that have tried . They are bogging with a 30 mm and a 115 main ? I'd love to get my hands on them to find the problem .the only thing I can think of would be contributed to the head , cam and or exhaust .
Alley and jr , do you agree the more air and fuel you can put through the engine without running to rich and flooding it , the more hp you will gain ? I do understand there is a limit inwhich my scoot will begin to bog and run like hell , but I for some reason am able to run more air and fuel then some bigger bored 150's . I understand how you are skeptical " because others have tried and failed , but I did it . If I where you I would want to see how it was possible not just imply that I'm lying because you think it isn't possible . I'll admit maybe I did just get lucky , I bought the mods installed them and never had a prob with the 32 mm carb and 125 main jet . But something with my setup is allowing for more fuel and air to be burned without flooding the engine . I myself would like to know for sure why that is . If I can pinpoint what it is then I can help others get more out of their scoot . I thought it was the bigger style uni I was using but even with that the gy6 200 from scrappy still wouldn't take the extra fuel . So now what , I don't have a supply of heads , cams or exhausts to test .
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 31, 2014 23:07:26 GMT -6
Hey jr do you braze when using 410a ? I've been using stay brite #8 which has a higher silver content , no need to braze or use nitro and much easier . It also dosent void any warranties . However when it comes to commercial u still have to braze . Haven't done any brazing in a long time, I'm retired. All my cooling expertizes is in the industrial ammonia refrigeration fields, never have messed with home HVAC and Freon even though I know how. But I have done lots of air duct and air handling designs all again in the industrial fields.
JR
thats cool , my dad got his degree from triangle tech yrs ago and ever since I was 15 or so I help install residential units . I've never installed a boiler " I've worked on them but never an install " but when it comes to natural gas , propane , oil and electric I've done many . It's a very good field to get into . |
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 31, 2014 23:02:12 GMT -6
What I was trying to get through your thick brain was that motors produce more power in COOLER temps. It does not have to be 50 below just from day to night time temps you will notice a motor produces more power. That is what I was trying to tell you about your night run. Running at night with the air being cooler motors produce more power and run a lot better (4 Strokes Love Cool Air). Not that you were cheating or what not, it was just to try and explain why one would get different results from a day run and a night run. But you are saying that the extra mph is due to you finding something wrong with the variator and you fixed it and it now runs 73 down that decline when it only ran 68 during the day. And I am saying If you run that same route like you did when it ran 73 at night I am saying it will not run those numbers during the daytime in the heat. Concerning the speedo cable I thought you were going to get it a month ago. But when and if you do get the speedo cable and if you run that same route and want to video it I would want to see what the SPEEDO says compared to the RADAR. And it does not have to be a speed run, just a nice run that the speedo reads 60mph and then see what the radar says. Alleyoop we know that cooler air produces more hp I've never said it dosent that's common knowledge to me and you . it's the amount of hp these motors will produce with a 2 degree change in temp . U claimed I gained the extra 5 mph due to the temp being cooler during the second run , but the second run was done within an hr of the first . And on a warm summer night . Your resorting to being ignorant and blurtin out something like " that's what I was trying to get through your thick brain" common knowledge there alley , you forget we got past that a month ago when u mentioned it and I acknowledged that that is true back then . It's you telling others it's impossible to get a 32 mm pumper carb to work on these engines , and rediculous things like I picked up 5 mph from a possible 1 to 2 degree drop in temp , even though I explained I had to tune the cvt because I had to heavy of weights in . No back to the 32 mm carb , I have no bog whatsoever and with a 125 main . And before you mention it again I will remind you that my belt was starting very high on the variator causing a slower takeoff " due to the new Koso I and others have bought not letting the belt drop all the way " that had nothing to due with the carb . Even with the accelerator pump I have no bogging and good plug color " which I also posted pics on " I took measurements and posted pics about the new koso's being sold . And yes I will ride past the same radar sign so u can see that the speedo is accurate . And yes alley I don't notice any significant difference in performance change between 60 and 90 degrees . The only time I feel and see a noticeable gain is when it drops into the 50's and below . I've hit 67 on flats many times even up to 90 degrees . Now I've never road my scoot for more than 30 miles nonstop so I can't say how much I'd lose if any after running for an hr or so . Then again my oil temp never seems to get any higher then 220 even in 90 degree weather , so unless engine temp heats up more I shouldn't lose any performance . Oh yeh sorry I didn't get the speedo cable yet , I guess I should have messaged you to keep u up on that . But just to let u know I did order it about an hr ago . |
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 31, 2014 18:56:12 GMT -6
Hey jr do you braze when using 410a ? I've been using stay brite #8 which has a higher silver content , no need to braze or use nitro and much easier . It also dosent void any warranties . However when it comes to commercial u still have to braze .
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 31, 2014 18:50:45 GMT -6
Salt lake is where most do their speed runs BUT very early in the morning or late in the day when it is cool. Actually early in the mornings you freeze you butt out there or sleep overnight out there shit it is cold. Alleyoop Bingo ! And it also counts as not cheating . Even though I've never ran in cold weather to gps my scoot . That a why I do not see why the weather is a big deal , it's not like I'm running at 5:00 am in 40 degree weather . I'm running at the temps we all ride in . Hey jr I've never gps a cold run that is below 70 degrees . I've ran my scoot in 15 degree weather before but never used it as a means to get an extra mph while using gps . The reason I said it's childish is because of the very point I just made , I think we are all to old to be nit picking and throwing out excuses at how average riding weather or where I live is why my scoot runs as good as it does . |
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 31, 2014 18:41:48 GMT -6
It's funny u mention hvac because I've been installing furnaces , AC units and heat pumps " even though heat pumps here in pa are in my opinion not worth using " for 15 + yrs . I do have to correct you on the mph though my first run was not 67 mph " it was 68 " and after tuning the cvt in where I hit 7500 on a straight run I hit 73 mph down that small decline and I topped out at 8000 rpms . I understand the possibility of hitting higher mph down a mountain side but I do have perfectly straight roads here where I live and I've hit 67 many times on them " and in 90 + degree weather . There is a very steep hill that runs about 1 mile that I hit 79 mph on a couple yrs ago " but I had 13 gram rollers which where to heavy and I did post a thread about it " . I was probably topping out near 6500 rpms on a straight run and 55- 60 mph with the 13 gram rollers and was no where near the engines full potential . Many do not understand that the closer you get to running the engine at it's full potential on a straight run , the smaller the increase will be when u hit a hill . Just like when I had 13 gram weights in , my scoot topped out between 55-60 and down a hill I gained 7 to 19 mph not breaking 8000 rpms , but with my engine maxed out at 7500 rpms on a straight run I'll gain anywhere from 3 to 10 mph " 10 mph down the same I gained almost 19 on " . I gained 6 mph down the decline in the vid I posted to hit 73 mph " which I was shocked I gained that much from what the hill looks like in person ". It's not just the mph gain that is different but the rpms to reach 79 down the very steep hill are different . I have to nearly hit 9000 rpms to get a 10 mph gain " which I do not usually do " with my scoot tuned where I like it .. I still need to order a speedo cable so I'll do that 2night and when I get it installed " next week " I'll record a good 12 mile run so we can see the the mph on straight runs and all in between . That is because I have a speedo that is actually accurate.
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 30, 2014 21:52:39 GMT -6
Jr considering the average ft above sea level in the U.S is above 1000 ft many states having high populations in 5000 + above sea level and some states with over 10 to 15000ft above sea level I still do not sea any relevance in sea level , considering you tune your carb just for such instances so they burn fuel correctly . And as for the temp , there are no real noticeable losses or gains unless your measuring from let's say 60 and below compared to 95 . Same with humidity , this summer wasn't all that bad but last summer was always near 90 % humidity and hot as hell and I still ran 67 mph . I never clocked my scoot in cold weather I did so in riding weather . It's childish to keep making these excuses about weather because it's constantly changing everywhere . Anyway what type of weather do you think they do land speed tests in ?
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Post by geh3333 on Oct 30, 2014 20:57:39 GMT -6
But 73 mph down a small decline like that isn't easy .The only reason I posted the vids was because I was told that it was impossible and that was the only rd with the radar sign which looked pretty straight in person .I hit 60+ going in the other direction . It is not at all a steep grade . My scoot tops out around 7500 rpms on a true straight run and topped out at 8000 rpms on the 73mph posted run. I gained 6 mph down that small decline , that's completely normal considering my scoot is tunned to completely top out at 7500 rpms at 67mph . 6 mph with a 500 rpm increase sounds about right ( that is down a small decline ) . Also I don't see how a so called expert can sit there and say a 32 mm carb will not work when I was successful installing one with a 125 main jet on mine " and with a smaller bbk " . There is no denying that it is possible . And since it is possible then there is obviously going to be an increase in performance . So explain why my scoot can handle the extra air and fuel and the scrappy gy6 200 engine Boggs terribly with a 30mm carb and a 115 main jet ? That's an honest question how do you think that's possible ? Alley being a so called expert should also know that replacing the stock cvt with an ncy clutch assembly and a 115 Koso variator with an 842 belt and tuned in to run at max hp " around 7500 rpms " , this will give you a 5 mph gain from stock . And considering my scoot topped out at 55 mph stock the cvt work got me to sixty and then I did the top end rebuild with the 58.5 bbk and the ncy 58.5 racing head plus the exhaust , final drive gears, cam and so on . It's not hard to see how the scoot can hit 67 on a straight run especially since it's burning a good bit more fuel then most " and not running to rich " . It's not hard work just about anyone can do it some just do it better because they have an open mind and actually try to do things others say is impossible . And that's right jr running at redline for an extended period is not good for these engines that's why I have might to top out at 7500 rpms on a straight run " so I can pass cars if I have to or just run her hard without redlining " no one said it was rocket science , these are one of the easiest engines to work on . If I were to teach someone how to work on bike engines I'd start with the gy6 and then move on to something a little more complex . It's funny that alley acts like it's rocket science and that no one can possibly know as much as him . This is a rookie engine " very fun to ride and work on but a very rookie engine " . Nothing really to brag about . Not like tearing down a gun finding the problem " some fitting new parts that you made on a lathe" and making sure it dosent blow in anyone's face causing death or bodily harm " still very fun but much more to be proud of .
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