HELP-Electrical madness, no power to anything and much more. By blacraven (Read 2,142 times)

[blacraven]

2009 Shanghai Beta 50cc/100cc BBK.


Hello all,
To make a long story short(or not so long).
I'm trying to solve this electrical problem that I've been having.
I have no power to anything anymore.

Electrical history:
•Run/Stop switch doesn't work and has no effect.
(It hasn't ever since I took it to a shop for not starting a few years ago, I'm still unsure to this day what they did..)
The bike still ran ok after this until recently which I'll go into.

Now these are the problems I have(along with the non-working run/stop switch):

•Electric start button doesn't work. I have to crank it using the solenoid,(yes I'm holding the brake and it's not the kickstand)
•Key won't turn off the bike(I shut it off using the kickstand kill switch),
•Headlight and taillight won't come on(bulbs are fine) and the rear top brake strip light, lights up only when the brake is pressed but not the main tail light, and the front side assist-headlights were working, not the big middle main head light.
This has been the case for about 2-3 years and the bike ran fine with this problem until all the recent electrical problems.


Recent new installations:
(I'll leave out the CVT stuff sliders, clutch, etc...as it has nothing to do with electrical)
•All brand new:
Stator,
RR,
Performance CDI,
Performance Ignition Coil,
Spark plug,
100cc BBK, Carb, cam, etc...
BBK link

I was currently in the process of trying to solve the hard starting issues after the when the problems arose.

It would only start after much cranking and only when I had jumper cables connected to it, like it needed the extra voltage or something?
A few times I got away with kickstarting it, But even this would be either hit or miss and only after many kicks.

My battery was dead/not charging and I thought the new Stator and RR would solve this.
The Stator actually solved a no spark issue I had and allowed me to finally start the scooter.
So this left the RR.
I replaced it and still had no head and tail lights.

I took my battery to get fully charged(The auto place guy said he couldn't check if it held the charge because his meter was only able to read bigger voltage... Also he said the water in the battery was low and we filled the water up before he put it on the charge).

I couldn't check if my battery was dead or held a charge at the time because my multi had dead batteries.
I put it in the bike and nothing... No crank at all, no lights/horn, no nothing(I atleast had all this before, just not strong enough to crank)
I got home because it started when I kicked it.
On the way home I realized all the lights(turn signals, side headlight-assist-lights, etc..stopped working, also the horn)
My speedometer was very dim and would only get brighter when I revved the engine up but no other light/horn would work.
Shouldn't a good Stator/RR keep every light bright and working as long as the enging is running?

When I got home and got some batteries for the multi meter, it was going haywire, randomly cycling through numbers every time I put any of the leads near the bike while it was running.
When the bike was off, I believe my battery showed 12.(something? I think 12.6??) but definitely over 12.volts, which is weird because the turn signals/horn/electric start should be working.

But whenever the bike was  running, the multi was cycling through the random numbers which made it impossible to get a reading on anything and figure out if anything happened.

*side note: I forgot to tighten the RR bolt and rode with it dangling for a bit. I thought maybe it broke something? So I switched back to the old RR and the same thing so I thought nothing of it.
I also tried swapping back in the old CDI, same result.

I was jumping the solenoid to crank it at this point but it never started again and this is where I am now.


I have been trying to get this scooter running again properly for about the last month and a half and am completely frustrated.
I upgraded so much and thought I was gonna be rolling again,
My scooter is my main method of transportation and I really need it running.
Please help me,
Thanks in advance.

[JR]

Long story short you have a mess and whoever worked on it electrically did a hack job on it. Now the 50cc scooters are generally simple electrically and I'm not going to look for a specific diagram because more than likely there isn't one. If you accidently have a manual that has a diagram then that's good but it may be a generic and not help?

Here is a 50cc scooter with a side stand switch that is at least a start.

Now since this is your means of transportation working on it with all you have wrong is going to be a take pictures and trace this system out to take out all the issues, it's not going to be a magical, 10 minute job to work out the troubles which are many. If you can't open it up, tell us what is what, take pictures to give us a scene of what you have then it's going to be tough to get it fixed, not being rude just honest. Have helped many just like you but it takes time and patience, got to fix one item at a time, start, charging, lights, etc.

Also people here answer and help on a basis of when they have time just like you can only work on it when you have time and are not at work. It's that way with most forums, again not being rude but expect a mess like you have to take some time.

I have every bit of confidence if you help us help you that we can fix this scooter so when you can strip it down and start let us know and we'll go from there.

JR

[minesweeper]

How about the ignition switch JR? It won't shut off with the key, he has no start button, no lights with the key. It sounds like the killwire won't ground through the ignition switch and he's not getting squat on the black wire. Hey Blacraven, are your stator wires green/yellow/white? I agree with JR, you have a mess. You might want to consider stripping the bike down and doing a scratch wiring. As JR said, the 50's are not that complicated. It might be easier than trying to sort out a trashed harness.

[blacraven]

Thanks,
Side note:
I was on another forum and Alleyoop used to help me alot, he recommended this one to me.
I have been looking over the things you have here for the past week and I must say, I really love it.
The detail is amazing, thanks JR.

Back to the scoot:
Yes I do have a manual, it came with it.
I'll sort through the diagram,
I must say, I understand most of it, but the other half is sorta confusing.
Overall I should be able to figure it out.
I'm going to start on it in another hour or so but one question,

How can I test everything if the multi-meter is going haywire when the scooter is running?
(I heard this could be because of the spark plug boot cap, I'll check by swapping the old ignition coil and see if it still does it).

Do I just check continuity with the bike off?

If all else fails, maybe I'll purchase one of those wire harness that they sell.
GY6 wire harness link
Thanks,
I'll report back later.

[blacraven]

Sept 23, 2014 10:24:06 GMT -6 minesweeper said:

How about the ignition switch JR? It won't shut off with the key, he has no start button, no lights with the key. It sounds like the killwire won't ground through the ignition switch and he's not getting squat on the black wire. Hey Blacraven, are your stator wires green/yellow/white? I agree with JR, you have a mess. You might want to consider stripping the bike down and doing a scratch wiring. As JR said, the 50's are not that complicated. It might be easier than trying to sort out a trashed harness.

Yes my stator wires are green yellow and white.
i also have a black and red and a blue and white

[minesweeper]

As you can see with the diagram JR posted the yellow wire on that configuration is an AC feed directly off of the stator and is regulated to 12v AC by the R/R. It energizes the headlight which makes the headlight come on when the bike starts and the stator starts generating current. I know this isn't specifically your bike but if you have that stator wire configuration the yellow is supplying the headlight......or WAS! Since your headlight doesn't come on I'm assuming somebody indeed did the hack job wiring as JR alludes to. By the way, the red/black wire off of the stator runs to the CDI and supplies the energy for the spark. The blue/white is your trigger coil and tells the CDI when to release the energy to the ignition coil for the spark. The white wire in the pigtail is dedicated to the charging circuit and consequently doesn't branch off like the yellow. Some of the lights are supposed to run off of a black DC wire from the ignition switch. These lights are the tail light, brake lights, turn signals, and other lights mandated to come on before starting by the DOT. The others come on when the stator starts spinning and the yellow wire lights up. You need to expose your ignition switch by taking the front cowling off. Then unhook the switch pigtail from the harness. On the switch pigtail use your multimeter to check continuity from red to black with the switch on and off. Then check continuity from the black/white (or pink) to ground with the key off and on. Let us know what you get. Believe me, this is just a start on your mess.

[blacraven]

*Update Solved no power (still working on no headlight/taillight problem)

Hey everyone,
I solved the no power problem, I caught it after a good while tracing wires.

Apparently when I went to put the battery back in after I took it to be charged,
The wire that has the fuse that's supposed to go to positive, I accidentally put it on the negative, it was dark and I had spent about an hour searching the ground for one of the screws that go into the battery post to put the wires back on. I had dropped it into oblivion never to be found again, I wound up buying another one.
But it has a black sleeve on it so I must've mistaken it for a negative wire.

This was the culprit.

It was a miracle it kick started and took me home that day.



Now as far as the headlight taillight problem,
When I took the front headlight panel off this is what I saw,
These two wires (Green and Black)are different colors but they go into each other via the female/male connectors,

I haven't tried to connect them after I found the problem but I will later on today.
I hope nothing blows out, but there is nothing else to connect these to.
Do you think that maybe they came loose?
Will it be safe to connect them together?

[JR]

NO! If I am correct this is a 12Vdc accessory wire and a ground. First thing we need to do is to turn the key on and see if there is 12Vdc on the black wire, check it with your meter. If this is the case then you need to trace the green wire to it's location. It's possible it goes to a brake light switch or something else that feeds off 12 volts but we need to know first. It is a dark green which sometimes is the horn voltage feed but trace it out first.

Headlights and tail lights both feed off of same circuit, you've got a lose plug or broke wire/bad connection somewhere in the harness. Also to make sure the system is charging start the scooter and then test it on the battery with it idling and revved up to see if the voltage increases. Crossing a positive to a negative can have bad results. Also make sure the fuse is good. Does scooter have a on/off headlight switch or just a dimmer switch? Headlight/taillight wires are generally yellow and or brown wires.

JR

[blacraven]

Sept 24, 2014 4:36:08 GMT -6 JR said:

NO! If I am correct this is a 12Vdc accessory wire and a ground. First thing we need to do is to turn the key on and see if there is 12Vdc on the black wire, check it with your meter. If this is the case then you need to trace the green wire to it's location. It's possible it goes to a brake light switch or something else that feeds off 12 volts but we need to know first. It is a dark green which sometimes is the horn voltage feed but trace it out first.

Headlights and tail lights both feed off of same circuit, you've got a lose plug or broke wire/bad connection somewhere in the harness. Also to make sure the system is charging start the scooter and then test it on the battery with it idling and revved up to see if the voltage increases. Crossing a positive to a negative can have bad results. Also make sure the fuse is good. Does scooter have a on/off headlight switch or just a dimmer switch? Headlight/taillight wires are generally yellow and or brown wires.

JR

Ok I'll trace it out first and do the tests on them.
The only fuse I ever saw was the one on the battery wich is good.
My headlight is just a low/high beam switch.

Question: I lost the screw that mounts the RR, in an instructional video the guy said that the RR is grounded to the frame and wo truncation if it's not screwed in.
Is that true?
Can I just hook a wire up to the frame and coil it a few times through the hole of the RR until I get a new screw to fit it?

[JR]

Most R/R needs to be grounded. The hardware will have a metric bolt that fits if not then run a 1/4" standard tap through the hole and then use a standard US 1/4" bolt. Wire wrapping it not a good solution.

When you get the battery tests done and trace out that wire let us know.

JR

[blacraven]

Sept 24, 2014 10:40:34 GMT -6 JR said:

Most R/R needs to be grounded. The hardware will have a metric bolt that fits if not then run a 1/4" standard tap through the hole and then use a standard US 1/4" bolt. Wire wrapping it not a good solution.

When you get the battery tests done and trace out that wire let us know.

JR

I found the RR screw so that's grounded now.


The Black wire is getting power from the battery only when the key is turned to on.
It is not grounded when the key is on or off.

The green wire is NOT getting any power when the key is either on or off.
It IS Grounded whether the key is on or off.

I'm still looking for where these two might go.

As far as a multi meter test with the scooter running,
As I stated before, the multi is going haywire and randomly cycling through numbers when it's anywhere near the bike when it is running.
I can't check anything. I heard this had something to do with the spark plug boot not being shielded on the performance coils.
I have another one but I have to drive to get it.

But right now there's no way to test with the bike running

[JR]

Sept 24, 2014 15:54:53 GMT -6 blacraven said:

Sept 24, 2014 10:40:34 GMT -6 JR said:

Most R/R needs to be grounded. The hardware will have a metric bolt that fits if not then run a 1/4" standard tap through the hole and then use a standard US 1/4" bolt. Wire wrapping it not a good solution.

When you get the battery tests done and trace out that wire let us know.

JR

I found the RR screw so that's grounded now.


The Black wire is getting power from the battery only when the key is turned to on.
It is not grounded when the key is on or off.

The green wire is NOT getting any power when the key is either on or off.
It IS Grounded whether the key is on or off.

I'm still looking for where these two might go.

As far as a multi meter test with the scooter running,
As I stated before, the multi is going haywire and randomly cycling through numbers when it's anywhere near the bike when it is running.
I can't check anything. I heard this had something to do with the spark plug boot not being shielded on the performance coils.
I have another one but I have to drive to get it.

But right now there's no way to test with the bike running

No need to look for where these two wires go, they go no where. They are as I suspected accessory wires for anything you want to put on them that requires 12volts. Black is hot with key on the green is a ground wire.

I have never heard of such a thing with your meter so you're on your own with that one. Without a working meter you can't find out what's going on. Maybe if it is the coil you could put the OEM one back on to test, the performance electrical is all a joke to me but that's my opinion.

JR

[blacraven]

Sept 24, 2014 19:17:04 GMT -6 JR said:

Sept 24, 2014 15:54:53 GMT -6 blacraven said:

I found the RR screw so that's grounded now.


The Black wire is getting power from the battery only when the key is turned to on.
It is not grounded when the key is on or off.

The green wire is NOT getting any power when the key is either on or off.
It IS Grounded whether the key is on or off.

I'm still looking for where these two might go.

As far as a multi meter test with the scooter running,
As I stated before, the multi is going haywire and randomly cycling through numbers when it's anywhere near the bike when it is running.
I can't check anything. I heard this had something to do with the spark plug boot not being shielded on the performance coils.
I have another one but I have to drive to get it.

But right now there's no way to test with the bike running

No need to look for where these two wires go, they go no where. They are as I suspected accessory wires for anything you want to put on them that requires 12volts. Black is hot with key on the green is a ground wire.

I have never heard of such a thing with your meter so you're on your own with that one. Without a working meter you can't find out what's going on. Maybe if it is the coil you could put the OEM one back on to test, the performance electrical is all a joke to me but that's my opinion.

JR

Yeah I'm gonna put the OEM coil on and see if it changes things.
As far as it performance is any better, I don't know but it came with the BBK.

The reason some performance electric parts might work is if they use thick enough wire for a stronger current/signal to pass through.
When I was younger, I had a job installing car systems, stereos, speakers, TVs, etc... We had to use thick gauged wire for more powerful systems or it wouldn't perform properly.
Use a skinny wire to power a 1000 watt amp and it'll burn up and won't do so well.
Use very thick wire and you'll have plenty of power flowing and no problems.
The same with the shielded wire to protect from interference/ hum from the engine.

This is the logic I kinda used when it came to the so-called performance stuff,
But for all we know, they just painted the thing a different color and charged us more money,
and wanting the extra performance so bad, trick ourselves into thinking we're getting a little more kick from it.

[alleyoop]

HAHAHAHA, your so right, many fall for that kind of stuff and because you believe it the brain tricks you and you actually believe it is giving whatever more kick in the pants. One of the funniest ones I heard from a young pup was he said to gain 5 more mph take the mirrors off the scoot.
Alleyoop