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Post by JR on Dec 13, 2013 18:51:39 GMT -6
The wire colors are as follows: Kill switch/ black/white Ignition power/ Black/red Pickup/ blue/yellow Ignition coil/ black/yellow ground/ green All right except black/red = ac feed from stator and it is the typical Ac type system to the letter.
JR
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Post by JR on Dec 13, 2013 18:54:05 GMT -6
This is the problem:
Unless this picture is bad out of focus it appears the black wire on the male plug is aligned or hooked up to the black/white on the female plug? if so then you burned the CDI up with 12Vdc to the kill wire.
Unplug the CDI and turn the key on, take meter set on DC volts and test the black/white wire for DC voltage where it plugs in to the CDI. If this is the case then you have got to order a key switch with the right color/pin alignment or move two wires on this one:
Black to black and purple to black/white. Since you know you got to get a CDI do this and lets' test the system.
This is a AC type CDI and it will not have DC voltage to it from any wire going to it, only AC as you found on the black/red with engine turning over and .5 to 1.5 Vac on the pulse signal (blue/yellow) wire.
If the wires are indeed this way then change them as I mentioned then turn the key switch off and check the black/white wire for ohms resistance or continuity to ground at the CDI plugin. The turn the key switch on and you should then get no reading or continuity at all.
JR |
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Post by tvnacman on Dec 13, 2013 19:05:52 GMT -6
JR , have you got a diagram ?
You seem to surprise me often .
I see it this way black/white on the ignition switch, kill switch and in the correct position on the two wire plug . The solid black on the ignition switch is missing seems to be replaced by the purple . The double green is the question , could it be for extra load or a light around the cylinder ? A diagram would take the "?" out of the equation .
we can always do some probing/tracing .
John
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Post by JR on Dec 13, 2013 23:05:25 GMT -6
If you go to the first page and click on his initial photo it will enlarge for a better view. The top plug is the male and should be going to the new key switch he bought and the female is part of the scooter harness.
On my 50cc it's red to red, black to black, green to green and orange to black/white.
It's easy enough to test. like I said, unplug the CDI turn the key on and see if you have 12Vdc on the black/white wire at the CDI.
JR
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Post by tvnacman on Dec 14, 2013 6:00:38 GMT -6
I missed the solid black wire on the lower part of the plug .
John
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Post by pukatan on Dec 14, 2013 8:20:28 GMT -6
Thanks for the help and sorry that the position of the wires in the photo are not turned for the optimum view! All of the wires have a matching color wire mated to them in the plug connection except for the solid black is mated with a purple wire!
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Post by pukatan on Dec 14, 2013 10:10:46 GMT -6
Well John, I unplugged the key switch from the harness and metered the series of opened and closed positions as you described. If the open position means no continuity and closed position means there is continuity,then the switch checks out exactly as you posted! Where the heck is that 12vdc current coming from that is present at the kill switch wire to the CDI? What should I try next.... Sorry for all the trouble guys,but your help is greatly appreciated!
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Post by JR on Dec 14, 2013 10:59:29 GMT -6
Thanks for the help and sorry that the position of the wires in the photo are not turned for the optimum view! All of the wires have a matching color wire mated to them in the plug connection except for the solid black is mated with a purple wire! No if you look at your picture the top plug with the black wire is mated with the black/white on the bottom plug. If this is the case and the bottom plug (female) is the harness plug with the black/white going to the CDI then again you are sending 12Vdc to the CDI via the black/white kill wire, this would be the reason it smoked and burned.
Let me explain a typical scooter kill switch set up. I slapped these drawings up to illustrate, got some real nice ones somewhere?
A scooter key switch is a two way normally open (NO) and normally closed (NC) switch. First diagram is what is going on when the key switch is in the off position:
Now the red from the battery is in the open position (S1) which means no power to the system and at the same time the engine (CDI) is grounded out (S2)
Now in the engine run position this is what you see:
The red from the battery is now connected (S1) and the engine kill wire is open (S2).
So long story short and wire colors vary on key switches if you are sending 12vdc down the kill wire to the CDI it'll smoke it every time when it is a AC type CDI.
Three colors are nearly always the same:
Red = Battery power Black = 12Vdc out put from key switch Green = ground.
Sometimes especially on 2 stroke scooters black will be ground but this is not the case on your scooter. Again unplug the CDI turn the key on and at the plug that plugs into the CDI on the black/white wire test it to see if you have 12Vdc. If you do not know how to use a meter to do this test then let us know and we will tell you how.
JR
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Post by JR on Dec 14, 2013 11:02:49 GMT -6
Well John, I unplugged the key switch from the harness and metered the series of opened and closed positions as you described. If the open position means no continuity and closed position means there is continuity,then the switch checks out exactly as you posted! Where the heck is that 12vdc current coming from that is present at the kill switch wire to the CDI? What should I try next.... Sorry for all the trouble guys,but your help is greatly appreciated! Leave the key switch plugged in and test as I said in my last post, using a volt meter put the meter on 20Vdc and then the black meter probe on the battery negative post then with the key on put the red lead probe on the black/white wire at the CDI plug, if you have 12Vdc then you got your answer and need to change some of the key switch wires.
JR
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Post by pukatan on Dec 14, 2013 11:39:06 GMT -6
Yes, the photo of the key switch plug is somewhat deceiving because it was photographed with the switch lying on the floor board of the scooter and not mounted on the steering colom ,so all is upside down! OOPS! Also, what appears to be a solid black wire mated up with a black/white wire is not what it appears! The stripe was twisted out of frame! The b/w and b/w are connected,red and red connected, both sets of green connected, and the purple from the harness and black from switch are connected! I have a little knowledge on the use of a multi-meter,and have tested the kill switch wire at at CDI female plug exactly as you described and yes there is 12vdc on the b/w wire. Do I need to rearrange the wire configuration on the key switch or is this phantom voltage coming from somewhere else.
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Post by pukatan on Dec 14, 2013 11:58:44 GMT -6
JR, I used your diagrams of the switch circuit, and all checks out perfectly!
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Post by pukatan on Dec 14, 2013 12:20:32 GMT -6
I found something while checking the wire harness without the key switch plugged in and can see that the purple wire that makes the on position circuit closed with the red wire has continuity with the black/white wire! Those two wires come in contact with each other somewhere, and it seems, that is possibly why there is vdc going to the kill switch wire at the CDI! Is this correct!!!!!
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Post by JR on Dec 14, 2013 12:27:59 GMT -6
OK that makes more sense so we now know that the key switch is right as far as wire alignment. So now here is a test we can do to see if the key switch is wrong/bad or if it's a wire in the harness that's crossed with another. Now we need to remove the black/white wire only from the key switch (male) plug and not damage it. Here is a video on the principal of how to remove one wire from one of these plugs, you can also use a very tiny screwdriver like one for eyeglasses.
Now since you said you weren't that great with a volt meter this is why I'm making it as simple as I can and not telling you about ohming the system. We will kill two birds with one stone here.
After you remove the black/white wire from the male key switch plug connect the plug back into the female one going to the harness again with the single black/white wire removed.
Turn the key on and using your meter see if you have 12Vdc + on the single removed black/white wire. If you do not then with everything the same, key on, black/white wire removed go test the black/white wire like I told you in the last post at the CDI plug again for 12Vdc. If you have voltage on this wire still then what has happened is the black/white wire in the harness has rubbed into or is crossed with the black 12Vdc key switch output wire some where in the harness, time to start tracing out wires.
But if you have 12Vdc on the single removed black/white wire at the key switch and have no voltage on the black/white wire at the CDI plug then you have a bad key switch or the wrong key switch (highly doubt this).
With the black/white wire removed for the plug and the key on you should have NO voltage on this wire.
I'm going to be going shopping in the next hour but I will check back on this later for your results.
JR
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Post by JR on Dec 14, 2013 12:29:25 GMT -6
I found something while checking the wire harness without the key switch plugged in and can see that the purple wire that makes the on position circuit closed with the red wire has continuity with the black/white wire! Those two wires come in contact with each other somewhere, and it seems, that is possibly why there is vdc going to the kill switch wire at the CDI! Is this correct!!!!! I just posted on that possibility, read and do my test, will check back later.
JR
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Post by pukatan on Dec 14, 2013 14:49:49 GMT -6
Thank you for all of the valuable info! As I was keeping the intersected wire theory in mind, I went out in the shop between posts, and removed all of the front plastic(once again) and started looking for purple and black/white wires that were visible without cutting into the harness, and found two sets of wires plugged together that were B/W and green on a male plug, and a purple and green on a female plug! I unplugged them and then metered the kill switch wire at CDI and amazingly, no 12vdc anymore! I plugged the new CDI in and finally got a spark! It tried to start up, and I think with a good carburetor cleaning, she will live again! You guys are amazing for helping those that are lacking in all of the skills necessary to get our project scooters running again, and my hat goes out to yall! Thank you JR and John for all of the time and will up date you on the final start up!!!!!!
Forever grateful,
Mark
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