Another PDI checkpoint! By steve (Read 1,345 times)

[steve]

I feel better if I call this tuition. PST150-8 ran great for the first 20 miles and then went dead on me. I did all the usual checks. She has new fuel/vacuum lines, new filter, new fuel pump, new carb, airbox checked and cleaned. On the ignition side, she has new CDI, coil, plug. Gave up and called the shop. $450 later, they brought her back. Said my gas looked orange because they often line the tank with beeswax prior to shipping. 1 hour to actually drain the tank and clean the new carb and 4 hours of T/S labor at $85.00 per hour. So maybe flushing the gas tank as part of the PDI is worth the effort.

[alleyoop]

OUCH!! I would not take it back to those crooks. Yours is the only one I have ever heard a monkey mechanic say it was due to a gas tank lined with BEESWAX(WHAT A LINE)!!!
Alleyoop

[steve]

[replyingto=alleyoop]alleyoop[/replyingto]Well, the gas was orange and I used up all of the lawnmower and Cushman stuff I learned as a kid. Problem is, it does start and idle well, but it won't rev past about 4500 rpm and I have to sneak up on her to get that. 21mph isn't safe on the street. Guess I'll just try to drive it out of her till Tuesday when the shop opens. We didn't even cuddle after

[alleyoop]

HAHAHAHA, well pretty simple my man, just drain the tank and get some good gas in there. But if after the new gas and it still runs like you say it does, the carb needs to be adjusted if you have to sneak up on it to get some speed and the motor to rev higher.

And no charge
Alleyoop

[steve]

[replyingto=alleyoop]alleyoop[/replyingto]Thanks, Alley! I will try that after the mech looks at again. For that money this thing should fly! Could have installed a BBK and carb for about the same. If I call him back, does that make me a stalker?

[rapidjim]

I am here to tell you that Ice Bear doesn't line their tanks with anything. What a Load of bull!

Jim

[steve]

[replyingto=rapidjim]rapidjim[/replyingto]The good news for me is that he doesn't have his $450 yet! Alley suggested that I drain the tank again and then tune the carb. He is without question an expert on all things trike but I will take a moment here to say that I have drained the tank again and replaced the carb with a new unit and still have the same issue. That issue being that she wont rev beyond 4.5K. Rolls up smooth as glass till about 4.2k and then gets rough and starts cutting out. Acts like a rev limiter is kicking in, but I have the NCY with 4 degree advance and no rev limiter. Don't know much at all about carbs, but I since this is the second one with the same issue, I was wondering if maybe it could be a valve problem and not the carb? Again, I do not question Alley as he has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know, but 2 carbs with the same issue? I have also replaced the coil, plug, fuel and vacuum lines, fuel pump and filter. This is a new trike with less than 40 miles on it.

[alleyoop]

I only said to drain the tank and put in new fuel to prove it is not the gas.
Have you adjusted the CARBs Fuel Ratio Mixture on any of the carbs you put on or did you just get the carbs and slapped them in with out adjusting them?

Also WHY did you put on the NCY CDI? was this happening before you added all the new stuff?

If you DID NOT adjust the carbs then do that FIRST.
From the way it is acting it is either FUEL DELIVERY problem and or ELECTRICAL cutting out that way.
Here is how to adjust the carb:

If your carb has a SCREW near the INTAKE MANIFOLD side the Carb has a FUEL RATIO MIXTURE Adjustment screw.

Turning the Fuel Ratio Mixture Clockwise LEANS it Turning it Counter Clockwise RICHENS it.

The Idle Speed screw is on the Throttle Control Wheel that the Throttle Cable pulls on. The Idle Speed Screw usually has a SPRING under it to keep the setting. Turning that Clockwise RAISES the Idle and Turning it Counter Clockwise LOWERS the Idle.

Most of your 250+ scoots come with 30+ mm Carbs. The procedure is the same just that the Fuel Ratio Mixture Screw may be in a Different place. They also have a ACV Valve that looks like a flying saucer attached to the front top of the carb. Other Carbs usually have them on the right side by the Throttle bracket.

[red]IF YOUR CARB HAS A SCREW ON THE AIR FILTER SIDE GO SEE 2TS CARB TUNING.[/red]

[red]Follow this procedure to tune the carb: Take your time 1/4 turn to much in either direction makes a big difference.[/red]

ADJUSTING YOUR FUEL RATIO MIXTURE:






Needle Diagram for Above 30mm Carb:




[red]YOU WANT THE HIGHEST RPMS OUT OF THE AIR RATIO MIXTURE SCREW:[/red]

Start your scoot and Get The Engine Nice and Hot about 5 minutes so that the Enricher IF it has one is no longer Allowing Extra Fuel to come in. Then do the following to fine tune the Fuel Ratio Mixture:

[blue]FUEL RATIO SCREW:[/blue]

FIRST TRY RICHENNG THE FUEL MIXTURE FROM ITS CURRENT SETTING:

1. [red]RICHEN THE FUEL RATIO MIXTURE:[/red]

Turn the Fuel Mixture Screw COUNTER CLOCKWISE 1/4 of a turn and wait 10 seconds to let the engine catch up with the new setting.

a. If the RPMS go up REPEAT #1 UNTIL the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE(then go to b).

b. TURN the Fuel Ratio Mixture Screw CLOCKWISE 1/8 and that should be your highest Fuel Ratio Mixture setting—GO TO #3.


[green]******[/green]If on the FIRST 1/4 TURN from the STARTING Position IN #1 ABOVE the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE , turn the Fuel Ratio Mixture Screw Back the 1/4 turn to the Starting position and wait 10 seconds until the engine catches up -- GO TO #2[green] ******[/green]


2.[red]LEAN THE FUEL RATIO MIXTURE:[/red]

Turn the Fuel Mixture Screw CLOCKWISE 1/4 of a turn and wait 10 seconds to let the engine catch up with the new setting.

a. If the RPMS go up REPEAT #2 UNTIL the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE(then go to b).

b. TURN the Fuel Mixture Screw COUNTER CLOCKWISE 1/8 and that should be your highest Fuel Ratio Mixture setting—GO TO #3.


[red]IF YOU GOT TO THIS POINT AND NOT INSTRUCTED TO GO TO #3 THAT MEANS THERE WAS NO CHANGE IN RPMS FROM DOING #1 or #2 ABOVE, IT IS TIME TO CLEAN THE CARB:
YOU NEED TO CLEAN YOUR PILOT JET AND PASSAGE AND AIR PASSAGES AND THEN START FROM #1 AGAIN.[/red]

3. [blue]IDLE SPEED SCREW:[/blue]

The Idle Speed Screw on a Carb that are on most 4Ts you will find on the right side on the THROTTLE CONTROL WHEEL. It is the screw with a SPRING on it.
To Lower the IDLE you turn it COUNTER CLOCKWISE to Raise the IDLE you turn it CLOCKWISE.

If after adjusting your Fuel Ratio Mixture your idle is to fast Turn the IDLE SPEED SCREW COUNTER CLOCKWISE. For the 50s-150s they like to idle around 1500-1800rpms, for the 250s+ they like to idle from 1800-2000 rpms, pick the smoothest idle with the rear wheel not spinning ---GO TO #4.

4. [blue]TEST YOUR ADJUSTMENTS:[/blue]

Now give the Throttle a QUICK twist and the RPMS should climb up quickly without hesitation or bogging and come down to where you set your Idle at---GO TO #5.

5. NOW take a ride and try it out, the Fuel Ratio mixture may need a tweak in either direction now that the motor has a load on it.

The tweak will be minor maybe a ¼ turn richer or leaner IF it acts up with a load---GO TO #6

6. When it acts up BACK OFF the throttle about ¼ of an INCH AND HOLD IT THERE:

a. If the motor speeds up it is LEAN you need to richen it up a little.

b. If the motor settles down and or stumbles and then settles down it is RICH you need to LEAN it out a little.
GO TO #5 AGAIN.

[blue]Problems with the IDLE:[/blue]

1. Give the throttle a quick twist:

A. If the rpms drop below idle speed, then recovers (or stalls), it is RICH —Turn the Fuel Mixture Screw Clockwise ¼ turns at a time and go to #1.

B. If the rpms do not drop quickly to the idle speed but hang and drop slowly it is LEAN —Turn the Fuel Mixture Screw Counter Clockwise ¼ turns at a time and go to #1.

Let me know the results:



If still the same then I would put the OLD CDI back in and try it with that CDI.
Alleyoop

[steve]

I install the cdi/coil as part of my pdi. Do it for reliabilty. I have actually tried the swap back to the original configuration with the same issue still there. I do thank-you for your help, Alley and will go back to the carb early AM before this TX sun gets to hot. I am learning as fast as I can, but right now, I'm that guy with one Karate lesson. I know just enough to get my butt whipped.

[steve]

So, factory CDI/Coil back in. Got about 600 more rpm at idle by doing the air/fuel adj. Still seeing only 4.7 to 4.9k rpm. Sounds like it's backfiring a little when the dropout starts? Still have to ease her up to the 4.7k mark. I did not mention that after she quit, I did try several CDI/Coil and 3 different plugs along with the new fuel filter. Gas is no longer orange. Getting 20vac at the coil input when I pull that wire and crank the engine. Maybe a drop out at the stator/pickup? As I said, this is a brand new trike and Ice Bear seems to have a very good rep so I have been avoiding those issues as low percentage.
What would make the gas turn orange? I'm the security guy here and this started after I tossed a drug dealer, but I have a locking gas cap. Oh well, the mech is looking for 450 that he won't see till this problem is resolved. And thanks for your help!

[alleyoop]

Backfiring on DEL-CEL means it is running LEAN. Now Backfiring on DEL-CEL can be a couple things causing that. The Flange where it connects to the motor is leaking or you have a bad air leak around the carb and or intake manifold.

I do not understand when you say IT SOUNDS like it is backfiring??? Backfiring you should know right away I mean it is POW POW. Now it could be POPPING sound BIG DIFFERENCE.
So you have to be sure what it is doing because the two sounds point to TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Also WHY do you have to EASE up on the SPEED? What happens if you twist the throttle??

I would like to get a VIDEO of it on the CENTER STAND and you twisting the throttle revving it up to hear and see what it is doing.
Alleyoop

[steve]

[replyingto=alleyoop]alleyoop[/replyingto]Twist the throttle, and she runs good up to about 4.0k. which is launch plus about 700-800. Then she starts missing and back fire. Not exactly back fire or pop. Can't exactly describe the sound cause I've never heard and engine make that sound. Major loss of power till I back off and then she settles back in and runs smooth again. No issues with de-cel at all. The way to stop the misfire and loss of power is to back off on the throttle and twist her back on a little. She will then sneak up to the 4.6-4.9k. Vikings have the digital instrument package so it might be fairly accurate with the tach reading. She just won't run over 4.6k-4.7K In terms of speed, if I start out slowly, I can ease throttle out to about 14mph, back off a little and then bring her up slowly to about the 4.2K and as the variator slowly catches up she is OK to about 18-24mph/4.6K where she is all done. I did change engine and drive oil before I ever started her up. She may have had this problem from the get-go as all the miles I put on her were in the parking lot at a max of 15mph. Took about a month for the vendor to get me my MSO so I drove her around the parking lot looking for things to drop off and to stretch the chain a little. No chatter or lurch on launch, though.

Can't put her on the center stand cause she is a 150-8 Viking trike. I don't have a jack or stands to get the back in the air. Got a couple of guys to hold her up when I installed the wheels. Would love to get her in the air with no load and see how she acts. I am on call til Tuesday evening, so if the mech doesn't pick her up first, I will pick up a couple of jack stands. Trikers should have them as part of their tool kit maybe. I have the 115 mm variator with 12 gram sliders from Scrappy to install, but I don't plan on that until I figure this out.

[alleyoop]

Ok, so your getting up to speed and then it starts acting up and you BACK off the throttle

Now do that again bring it up to when it starts acting up and BACK OFF THE THROTTLE 1/4 of an inch AND HOLD IT THERE and PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IT DOES VERY IMPORTANT it will tell us what the motor needs at that point:
A. If the SCOOT PICKS UP speed it is LEAN
B. If the SCOOT JUST settles down it is RICH.
Get back with the results of this Diagnoise.
Alleyoop

[steve]

[replyingto=alleyoop]alleyoop[/replyingto]Will do that for sure Tuesday. I have an impact wrench coming Tuesday evening. I might just pull the variator and belt to isolate the engine from the drive train?

MODIFIED:
Got up early this AM and tried your suggestion. A slight back off on the gas and she smooths right out. and runs back up to 4600 where she is done. She will not accept full throttle from idle. I did the fuel air adj again. Did counter clockwise till she slowed and ran rough, then cw. backed her off from there till she smoothed out and idle was max. Re-ran your test with the same results. I will note that air/fuel sensitivity is not very good. I can get a full turn either way without much change in idle speed. Not good for long term, but it's easy to pull the air box. Maybe repeat with the air box gone and see what happens?

[steve]

[replyingto=steve]steve[/replyingto]Can you spell dumb ass? The input to the air box points straight up. We had a heavy rain and the box filled with water so I pulled the box, drained the water, and dried the filter. To keep this from happening again, I installed a 1" OD pvc t in the opening. This must have restricted the air flow, because this AM, I puled the T and she runs great! The T cost me about 1/2" in diameter, plus the air had to make a 90 deg turn to get into the box. I have a KN filter coming that should solve the rain issue.

I thank you so much for all the effort you put into this and am so sorry for wasting your time. I have done a little customer service and I know that this method of T/S can be very difficult but it's impossible if the equipment has been modified. Again, thank-you.