bogging @ 1/2 to full thottle By oldbikerarlo (Read 2,913 times)

[JR]

I have no doubts that his engine can do this, but do it and substain it is two different things again this is nothing more than a lawn mower engine. This engine performs like all engines due to variables and conditions.

Fix your speedo, make a 50F to 35F run at the same place and watch and feel the engine respond better, no big thing to notice.

So if you know HVAC then you know that a house on a 90% humidity 90F day is harder to cool than a hose at 90F with 75% humidity or at least you should know?

I was a maintenance manager once several years back when USDA went on a rampage about condensation in food plants. Most food plants process hot and cold food items and when you mix the two together in the same plant you create moisture which attaches to everything and in this case it would even drip on the plant ceiling. Their theory? This moisture even though in a sanitized plant could cause food contamination. They threatened to shut us down.

Solution? I with the help of a aerodynamic engineer figured out our space and volume of air in and out of the plant in other words the air exchange. We had large air cooling units installed on the roof and pulled all the plant air through them over ammonia cooling coils the reheated the air to the desired temp for the plant. Why cool the air first, simply to drop the moisture out, We took humid air, cooled it which dropped out the moisture and put it back into them plant. Result, a dry plant and happy USDA. On cold winter days you could turn the cooling coils off and just heat the air, why? cold air is dry air. I also took all the cold water that came off these cooling coils in the summer and piped it to water cooled ammonia compressors which made them happy too a win, win for everyone.

Everything responds to weather, humidity, altitude, engines and even you.

JR

[JR]

Oct 31, 2014 18:56:12 GMT -6 geh3333 said:

Hey jr do you braze when using 410a ? I've been using stay brite #8 which has a higher silver content , no need to braze or use nitro and much easier . It also dosent void any warranties . However when it comes to commercial u still have to braze .

Haven't done any brazing in a long time, I'm retired. All my cooling expertizes is in the industrial ammonia refrigeration fields, never have messed with home HVAC and Freon even though I know how. But I have done lots of air duct and air handling designs all again in the industrial fields.

JR

[alleyoop]

What I was trying to get through your thick brain was that motors produce more power in COOLER temps. It does not have to be 50 below just from day to night time temps you will notice a motor produces more power. That is what I was trying to tell you about your night run. Running at night with the air being cooler motors produce more power and run a lot better (4 Strokes Love Cool Air). Not that you were cheating or what not, it was just to try and explain why one would get different results from a day run and a night run.
But you are saying that the extra mph is due to you finding something wrong with the variator and you fixed it and it now runs 73 down that decline when it only ran 68 during the day. And I am saying If you run that same route like you did when it ran 73 at night I am saying it will not run those numbers during the daytime in the heat.

Concerning the speedo cable I thought you were going to get it a month ago. But when and if you do get the speedo cable and if you run that same route and want to video it I would want to see what the SPEEDO says compared to the RADAR. And it does not have to be a speed run, just a nice run that the speedo reads 60mph and then see what the radar says.
Alleyoop

[geh3333]

Oct 31, 2014 19:31:01 GMT -6 alleyoop said:

What I was trying to get through your thick brain was that motors produce more power in COOLER temps. It does not have to be 50 below just from day to night time temps you will notice a motor produces more power. That is what I was trying to tell you about your night run. Running at night with the air being cooler motors produce more power and run a lot better (4 Strokes Love Cool Air). Not that you were cheating or what not, it was just to try and explain why one would get different results from a day run and a night run.
But you are saying that the extra mph is due to you finding something wrong with the variator and you fixed it and it now runs 73 down that decline when it only ran 68 during the day. And I am saying If you run that same route like you did when it ran 73 at night I am saying it will not run those numbers during the daytime in the heat.

Concerning the speedo cable I thought you were going to get it a month ago. But when and if you do get the speedo cable and if you run that same route and want to video it I would want to see what the SPEEDO says compared to the RADAR. And it does not have to be a speed run, just a nice run that the speedo reads 60mph and then see what the radar says.
Alleyoop

we know that cooler air produces more hp I've never said it dosent that's common knowledge to me and you . it's the amount of hp these motors will produce with a 2 degree change in temp . U claimed I gained the extra 5 mph due to the temp being cooler during the second run , but the second run was done within an hr of the first . And on a warm summer night . Your resorting to being ignorant and blurtin out something like " that's what I was trying to get through your thick brain" common knowledge there alley , you forget we got past that a month ago when u mentioned it and I acknowledged that that is true back then . It's you telling others it's impossible to get a 32 mm pumper carb to work on these engines , and rediculous things like I picked up 5 mph from a possible 1 to 2 degree drop in temp , even though I explained I had to tune the cvt because I had to heavy of weights in . No back to the 32 mm carb , I have no bog whatsoever and with a 125 main . And before you mention it again I will remind you that my belt was starting very high on the variator causing a slower takeoff " due to the new Koso I and others have bought not letting the belt drop all the way " that had nothing to due with the carb . Even with the accelerator pump I have no bogging and good plug color " which I also posted pics on " I took measurements and posted pics about the new koso's being sold . And yes I will ride past the same radar sign so u can see that the speedo is accurate . And yes alley I don't notice any significant difference in performance change between 60 and 90 degrees . The only time I feel and see a noticeable gain is when it drops into the 50's and below . I've hit 67 on flats many times even up to 90 degrees . Now I've never road my scoot for more than 30 miles nonstop so I can't say how much I'd lose if any after running for an hr or so . Then again my oil temp never seems to get any higher then 220 even in 90 degree weather , so unless engine temp heats up more I shouldn't lose any performance . Oh yeh sorry I didn't get the speedo cable yet , I guess I should have messaged you to keep u up on that . But just to let u know I did order it about an hr ago .

[geh3333]

Oct 31, 2014 19:17:00 GMT -6 JR said:

Oct 31, 2014 18:56:12 GMT -6 geh3333 said:

Hey jr do you braze when using 410a ? I've been using stay brite #8 which has a higher silver content , no need to braze or use nitro and much easier . It also dosent void any warranties . However when it comes to commercial u still have to braze .

Haven't done any brazing in a long time, I'm retired. All my cooling expertizes is in the industrial ammonia refrigeration fields, never have messed with home HVAC and Freon even though I know how. But I have done lots of air duct and air handling designs all again in the industrial fields.

JR

thats cool , my dad got his degree from triangle tech yrs ago and ever since I was 15 or so I help install residential units . I've never installed a boiler " I've worked on them but never an install " but when it comes to natural gas , propane , oil and electric I've done many . It's a very good field to get into .

[geh3333]

I would like to know how my scoot with the mods I have can take the 32mm with a 125 main jet and the gy6 200 from scrappy cannot ? Atleast the ones on the sites that have tried . They are bogging with a 30 mm and a 115 main ? I'd love to get my hands on them to find the problem .the only thing I can think of would be contributed to the head , cam and or exhaust .
Alley and jr , do you agree the more air and fuel you can put through the engine without running to rich and flooding it , the more hp you will gain ? I do understand there is a limit inwhich my scoot will begin to bog and run like hell , but I for some reason am able to run more air and fuel then some bigger bored 150's . I understand how you are skeptical " because others have tried and failed , but I did it . If I where you I would want to see how it was possible not just imply that I'm lying because you think it isn't possible . I'll admit maybe I did just get lucky , I bought the mods installed them and never had a prob with the 32 mm carb and 125 main jet . But something with my setup is allowing for more fuel and air to be burned without flooding the engine . I myself would like to know for sure why that is . If I can pinpoint what it is then I can help others get more out of their scoot . I thought it was the bigger style uni I was using but even with that the gy6 200 from scrappy still wouldn't take the extra fuel . So now what , I don't have a supply of heads , cams or exhausts to test .

[geh3333]

THe only problem now is that the temps here are on an average o about 55 degrees here , but I can still show an accurate speedo reading and expect a mph gain or so .

[alleyoop]

One thing I know that can change the amount of air and fuel that comes in is the Cam. A short duration cam will limit the amount of air and fuel in.

[JR]

Oct 31, 2014 23:12:09 GMT -6 geh3333 said:

I would like to know how my scoot with the mods I have can take the 32mm with a 125 main jet and the gy6 200 from scrappy cannot ? At least the ones on the sites that have tried . They are bogging with a 30 mm and a 115 main ? I'd love to get my hands on them to find the problem .the only thing I can think of would be contributed to the head , cam and or exhaust .
Alley and jr , do you agree the more air and fuel you can put through the engine without running to rich and flooding it , the more hp you will gain ? I do understand there is a limit in which my scoot will begin to bog and run like hell , but I for some reason am able to run more air and fuel then some bigger bored 150's . I understand how you are skeptical " because others have tried and failed , but I did it . If I where you I would want to see how it was possible not just imply that I'm lying because you think it isn't possible . I'll admit maybe I did just get lucky , I bought the mods installed them and never had a prob with the 32 mm carb and 125 main jet . But something with my setup is allowing for more fuel and air to be burned without flooding the engine . I myself would like to know for sure why that is . If I can pinpoint what it is then I can help others get more out of their scoot . I thought it was the bigger style uni I was using but even with that the gy6 200 from scrappy still wouldn't take the extra fuel . So now what , I don't have a supply of heads , cams or exhausts to test .

Sometimes one gets a engine that acts different, with no real explanation. Example Rich from Doc owns several scooters and when he first started he bought two identical Bashan scooters for him and his wife. When I say identical I even mean the color. They have since then upgraded to better scooters but he still owns both the Bashans. The engine on the one he got for his wife runs like a BOOH and recently he did one thing to it, changed from rollers to sliders and that' it. he did that as much as to just play with sliders to see the difference everyone was talking about. Again this scooter and engine totally stock will scream, it will leave his Bashan behind and make it look extremely weak, again they are identical.

This engine now with the sliders is so strong that he's putting it in the scooter his wife is now riding which I believe is the Puma?
I'll relate some of my findings of my own and with others. My Bali 150, big heavy touring scooter a 08 model. In 08 things were all over the board. Made friends on old Dawg with harryWr in Washington state. we compared findings on both our Balis. First thing we found is mine had a 842 gates belt stock and his has a 835 Bando, same scooter, same engine, same company hell they are even both Red. My scooter had 14g rollers, his had 13g, not guessing we both weighed them.

Where he lived was in the Mountain area and his Bali even with sliders and all the mods he could do except go to a BBK suffered in the mountains while I could do better with mine. I developed a oil leak on my head and pulled it apart and replaced the head and said what the heck and put rings on it too, had nearly 4k on it so why not? 57mm piston = 150cc. Harry decided to pull his apart because it was losing compression, result? he had a 52mm piston = 125cc. Again these scooters were made at the very same factory. 3 different things on 2 scooters made by the same people. The Chinese back in 08 were notorious for grabbing anything they had on the shelf to put out a scooter.

My 250 linhais, both identical except the name, both Red both equipped identically. My 250B will out pull and outrun my wife's 250A and my 250B has over 15k while her scooter has under 5k? Why? It's possible she has a 68mm piston and mine has the 70mm piston, this engine has been known to come with 3 different size pistons.
Summary? You may have got a scooter like Rich did with one of his Bashans? You might find one exactly like it and find it's not the same, it happens.

So when you ask why does your scooter do fine with the bigger carb and jets that may be the answer? What is the norm is too much more = running poorly. There are so many other things one can find, example when I pulled the head off my Bali I found the muffler pipe flange that is welded on that bolts to the head was half closed to what we welders call sugar. Sugar is metal that appears in a pipe or on the other side of metal opposite of the side you weld on when you weld too hot. I'm also a certified welder. By taking a die grinder and removing this to a nice polished finish I allowed better exhaust flow, better running engine. There are more variables and with the things you did to your scooter you made the engine more efficient.

But the same things you did may or may not work for someone else that has a gy-6 type scooter, too many things that may or may not be different?

JR

[geh3333]

Nov 1, 2014 13:55:35 GMT -6 alleyoop said:

One thing I know that can change the amount of air and fuel that comes in is the Cam. A short duration cam will limit the amount of air and fuel in.

that's the reason I'd love to know what cam I'm running . When I ordered mine it was listed as " racing cam " lol . It had no markings or even anything listed in the description when I went back to check . The " racing " cam does make a night and day difference in performance . The scoot is sluggish with the stock cam and lacks top end but I still don't have any bogging with the stock cam . I would expect that even though the racing cam keeps the valves open longer the air to fuel ratio should stay the same . That is with the gy6 200 that's bogging with the 30mm and 115 main , it should still be to much fuel with another cam .

[geh3333]

Nov 1, 2014 17:11:36 GMT -6 JR said:

Oct 31, 2014 23:12:09 GMT -6 geh3333 said:

I would like to know how my scoot with the mods I have can take the 32mm with a 125 main jet and the gy6 200 from scrappy cannot ? At least the ones on the sites that have tried . They are bogging with a 30 mm and a 115 main ? I'd love to get my hands on them to find the problem .the only thing I can think of would be contributed to the head , cam and or exhaust .
Alley and jr , do you agree the more air and fuel you can put through the engine without running to rich and flooding it , the more hp you will gain ? I do understand there is a limit in which my scoot will begin to bog and run like hell , but I for some reason am able to run more air and fuel then some bigger bored 150's . I understand how you are skeptical " because others have tried and failed , but I did it . If I where you I would want to see how it was possible not just imply that I'm lying because you think it isn't possible . I'll admit maybe I did just get lucky , I bought the mods installed them and never had a prob with the 32 mm carb and 125 main jet . But something with my setup is allowing for more fuel and air to be burned without flooding the engine . I myself would like to know for sure why that is . If I can pinpoint what it is then I can help others get more out of their scoot . I thought it was the bigger style uni I was using but even with that the gy6 200 from scrappy still wouldn't take the extra fuel . So now what , I don't have a supply of heads , cams or exhausts to test .

Sometimes one gets a engine that acts different, with no real explanation. Example Rich from Doc owns several scooters and when he first started he bought two identical Bashan scooters for him and his wife. When I say identical I even mean the color. They have since then upgraded to better scooters but he still owns both the Bashans. The engine on the one he got for his wife runs like a BOOH and recently he did one thing to it, changed from rollers to sliders and that' it. he did that as much as to just play with sliders to see the difference everyone was talking about. Again this scooter and engine totally stock will scream, it will leave his Bashan behind and make it look extremely weak, again they are identical.

This engine now with the sliders is so strong that he's putting it in the scooter his wife is now riding which I believe is the Puma?
I'll relate some of my findings of my own and with others. My Bali 150, big heavy touring scooter a 08 model. In 08 things were all over the board. Made friends on old Dawg with harryWr in Washington state. we compared findings on both our Balis. First thing we found is mine had a 842 gates belt stock and his has a 835 Bando, same scooter, same engine, same company hell they are even both Red. My scooter had 14g rollers, his had 13g, not guessing we both weighed them.

Where he lived was in the Mountain area and his Bali even with sliders and all the mods he could do except go to a BBK suffered in the mountains while I could do better with mine. I developed a oil leak on my head and pulled it apart and replaced the head and said what the heck and put rings on it too, had nearly 4k on it so why not? 57mm piston = 150cc. Harry decided to pull his apart because it was losing compression, result? he had a 52mm piston = 125cc. Again these scooters were made at the very same factory. 3 different things on 2 scooters made by the same people. The Chinese back in 08 were notorious for grabbing anything they had on the shelf to put out a scooter.

My 250 linhais, both identical except the name, both Red both equipped identically. My 250B will out pull and outrun my wife's 250A and my 250B has over 15k while her scooter has under 5k? Why? It's possible she has a 68mm piston and mine has the 70mm piston, this engine has been known to come with 3 different size pistons.
Summary? You may have got a scooter like Rich did with one of his Bashans? You might find one exactly like it and find it's not the same, it happens.

So when you ask why does your scooter do fine with the bigger carb and jets that may be the answer? What is the norm is too much more = running poorly. There are so many other things one can find, example when I pulled the head off my Bali I found the muffler pipe flange that is welded on that bolts to the head was half closed to what we welders call sugar. Sugar is metal that appears in a pipe or on the other side of metal opposite of the side you weld on when you weld too hot. I'm also a certified welder. By taking a die grinder and removing this to a nice polished finish I allowed better exhaust flow, better running engine. There are more variables and with the things you did to your scooter you made the engine more efficient.

But the same things you did may or may not work for someone else that has a gy-6 type scooter, too many things that may or may not be different?

JR

I do agree with your statement , these engines do seem to have slight differences in performance from engine to engine . Some may have a 50 mph top end and some may have a 55 mph top end . I've even heard others claim to have a higher top end varified by gps . But from the reaction I've got " mainly by 1 person " 32mm carb with a 125 main is not possible , even though I be been running that setup for about 3 yrs . I can understand the reaction of " how in gods name are you not bogging and running like hell? " but to get a reaction of " your lying " is just ignorant . And that's why there is all of this back and fourth . I was so eager to prove it that after I installed my new variator I went on a run without tuning it in properly and then I posted it without watching it " second mistake " . the vid clearly showed a downhill run even though it looks much worse in the video . That's when I knew I wasn't tuned in properly if I was only hitting 68 on a decline . I figured I'd just get it tuned in and see how she does then instead of deleting the vid , and that's when the 73 mph vid was posted . Was it proof of a 67 mph straight run ? No it wasn't , but I know there are not any other 58.5 modded scoots that I know of that will do 73 down that hill . I was even told by others that there 61 mm bbk scoot would have a hard time hitting 73 on that decline .

When it comes down to it , I have a scoot that is burning much more fuel then many others " even with bigger bores " , and without running to rich . Do I know how it's doing this ? Not yet but hopefully soon I will . The extra air and fuel is causing my scoot to run stronger and has givin me very nice top end . Am I bragging ? No , i always only wanted others to know it's possible . However now I know it's best not to just say it's possible but to find out how I was able to pull it off and then share and encourage others to do the same .

[geh3333]

Nov 3, 2014 0:33:44 GMT -6 geh3333 said:

Nov 1, 2014 13:55:35 GMT -6 alleyoop said:

One thing I know that can change the amount of air and fuel that comes in is the Cam. A short duration cam will limit the amount of air and fuel in.

that's the reason I'd love to know what cam I'm running . When I ordered mine it was listed as " racing cam " lol . It had no markings or even anything listed in the description when I went back to check . The " racing " cam does make a night and day difference in performance . The scoot is sluggish with the stock cam and lacks top end but I still don't have any bogging with the stock cam . I would expect that even though the racing cam keeps the valves open longer the air to fuel ratio should stay the same . That is with the gy6 200 that's bogging with the 30mm and 115 main , it should still be to much fuel with another cam .

You are right about the cam , after I went back and read what I wrote I realized what I said wasn't accurate . If replaced with a cam that's letting in less air and fuel each time the valves open then the air fuel can be adjusted so it's not running to rich . It is possible it's the cam that's letting me use the 32 mm carb , however that dosent account for my mpg dropping from 80+ mpg to 60 and under . I mentioned this before but I figure I'll mention it again . Not long after I first bought my scoot used I bought a new engine to mod . While rebuilding the new engine I noticed that I had 3 different cams , that means both stock engines had 2 different stock cams . They were noticeably different " At least the length of the ramps not the height " . I did notice that the so called racing cam had the longest ramps " meaning that the held the valves open the longest " . Now that I look back I remember thinking that the stock cams must not have been letting enough air and fuel to run properly .

When it comes to the scrappy gy6200 , maybe the cams they are using are letting in more air and fuel then my so called racing cam causing the engine to flood with the bigger carb . There would have to be a pretty big difference in the cams we are using to allow me to use a 32 mm and a 125 main jet ., and that engine not even be able to use a 30 mm and a 115 main .

[JR]

Nov 3, 2014 1:16:22 GMT -6 geh3333 said:

Nov 1, 2014 17:11:36 GMT -6 JR said:

Sometimes one gets a engine that acts different, with no real explanation. Example Rich from Doc owns several scooters and when he first started he bought two identical Bashan scooters for him and his wife. When I say identical I even mean the color. They have since then upgraded to better scooters but he still owns both the Bashans. The engine on the one he got for his wife runs like a BOOH and recently he did one thing to it, changed from rollers to sliders and that' it. he did that as much as to just play with sliders to see the difference everyone was talking about. Again this scooter and engine totally stock will scream, it will leave his Bashan behind and make it look extremely weak, again they are identical.

This engine now with the sliders is so strong that he's putting it in the scooter his wife is now riding which I believe is the Puma?
I'll relate some of my findings of my own and with others. My Bali 150, big heavy touring scooter a 08 model. In 08 things were all over the board. Made friends on old Dawg with harryWr in Washington state. we compared findings on both our Balis. First thing we found is mine had a 842 gates belt stock and his has a 835 Bando, same scooter, same engine, same company hell they are even both Red. My scooter had 14g rollers, his had 13g, not guessing we both weighed them.

Where he lived was in the Mountain area and his Bali even with sliders and all the mods he could do except go to a BBK suffered in the mountains while I could do better with mine. I developed a oil leak on my head and pulled it apart and replaced the head and said what the heck and put rings on it too, had nearly 4k on it so why not? 57mm piston = 150cc. Harry decided to pull his apart because it was losing compression, result? he had a 52mm piston = 125cc. Again these scooters were made at the very same factory. 3 different things on 2 scooters made by the same people. The Chinese back in 08 were notorious for grabbing anything they had on the shelf to put out a scooter.

My 250 linhais, both identical except the name, both Red both equipped identically. My 250B will out pull and outrun my wife's 250A and my 250B has over 15k while her scooter has under 5k? Why? It's possible she has a 68mm piston and mine has the 70mm piston, this engine has been known to come with 3 different size pistons.
Summary? You may have got a scooter like Rich did with one of his Bashans? You might find one exactly like it and find it's not the same, it happens.

So when you ask why does your scooter do fine with the bigger carb and jets that may be the answer? What is the norm is too much more = running poorly. There are so many other things one can find, example when I pulled the head off my Bali I found the muffler pipe flange that is welded on that bolts to the head was half closed to what we welders call sugar. Sugar is metal that appears in a pipe or on the other side of metal opposite of the side you weld on when you weld too hot. I'm also a certified welder. By taking a die grinder and removing this to a nice polished finish I allowed better exhaust flow, better running engine. There are more variables and with the things you did to your scooter you made the engine more efficient.

But the same things you did may or may not work for someone else that has a gy-6 type scooter, too many things that may or may not be different?

JR

I do agree with your statement , these engines do seem to have slight differences in performance from engine to engine . Some may have a 50 mph top end and some may have a 55 mph top end . I've even heard others claim to have a higher top end varified by gps . But from the reaction I've got " mainly by 1 person " 32mm carb with a 125 main is not possible , even though I be been running that setup for about 3 yrs . I can understand the reaction of " how in gods name are you not bogging and running like hell? " but to get a reaction of " your lying " is just ignorant . And that's why there is all of this back and fourth . I was so eager to prove it that after I installed my new variator I went on a run without tuning it in properly and then I posted it without watching it " second mistake " . the vid clearly showed a downhill run even though it looks much worse in the video . That's when I knew I wasn't tuned in properly if I was only hitting 68 on a decline . I figured I'd just get it tuned in and see how she does then instead of deleting the vid , and that's when the 73 mph vid was posted . Was it proof of a 67 mph straight run ? No it wasn't , but I know there are not any other 58.5 modded scoots that I know of that will do 73 down that hill . I was even told by others that there 61 mm bbk scoot would have a hard time hitting 73 on that decline .

When it comes down to it , I have a scoot that is burning much more fuel then many others " even with bigger bores " , and without running to rich . Do I know how it's doing this ? Not yet but hopefully soon I will . The extra air and fuel is causing my scoot to run stronger and has givin me very nice top end . Am I bragging ? No , i always only wanted others to know it's possible . However now I know it's best not to just say it's possible but to find out how I was able to pull it off and then share and encourage others to do the same .

I'll go back to one thing, I've never said you were lying. I did say the run was not flat therefore it was exaggerated, kind of like the "I went fishing and I caught........."

The problem you run into is when advising others is to remember that for whatever reason and you may never know is to tell them that there are certain things that are a given.

Will gain a little with CVT mods

Will gain a little with upjet and better air input

Will gain a little with exhaust mods

Will gain a little with better ignition system ( I have my doubts on this one but others do not)

Go above these then it's time to add more displacement but even then gains are minimal after all if one does have a standard 57mm piston going to 58.5 and even 61mm isn't very much.

Add some cam help and gain a touch more.

All adds up in the long run but here's where one draws a line in the sand. Are you racing and understand that running this engine WOT with every single mod makes it short lived or are you trying to run the scooter for dependable transportation and want the engine to last?

IMO if you are running it to depend on it then you keep the engine in the parameters that it was designed to run at. One can if they have fairly moderate terrain can fine tune minimally to hold a good highway speed of 55mph with a touch to spare and keep the engine at a lower less stressful RPM and heat range. Heat = enemy of air cooled engine for longevity.

So you asked why does your engine take the bigger carb and run fine? May not ever know. Just yesterday I was talking to Rich and as I mentioned he had two identical engines and he tried adding more fuel and air to his. The more he added the worse it ran and even today with the BBK he finally put on it for fun, he still has a stock carb upjetted slightly.

I gave him some advice on fitting his wife's scooter with sliders and this engine now even runs better especially up the hills again he just put this entire engine set up out of the cheap Bashan into his wife's more expensive Puma and the scooter will haul ass. Other than sliders it's pure stock.

What gets people into trouble when giving upgrade advice is they sometimes forget that what may be working for them very well may not for others. So many parameters can be different not only from one engine to another but we need not forget about people skills which can add one way or another to the spectrum of how something may or may not perform. You have people that are very mechanically inclined and understand things easily and know what to expect when being advised on this engine while others who buy these scooters then learn that they are expected to work on them and the scooter doesn't perform like some dealer online told them or not may not have the skills necessary to do mods in a way that is helpful and in the long run hurt the engine.

It's these people that then come back on a person who told them "this is what I did to my engine and I'm running this fast easily" that will turn on you and call you a idiot for telling them that. I've learned by being on these forums now for over 6 years to ask people one question when they ask anything about these simple scooters and it's this:

What are you trying to do with this scooter?

Lastly I stay away from mentioning things as much on what I've did or haven't done with any of my scooters like I used to. Old Dawg is full of things I tried and have done and some may or may not work for others and I'm not talking about doing things to try to milk every MPH out of the engine that I can. I've found and in this case I would advise you to be clear to people that there are things like above that are a given and beyond that they may find that their scooter is like yours and can even push the envelope more but they may yet find they will never make theirs perform as well as yours does.

BTW just for fun I mentioned that there is two things that you could still do to make this scooter run maybe as much as 3MPH faster, do you know what they are? Give you a hint, you would only do it for one run.

JR

[geh3333]

Nov 3, 2014 7:09:08 GMT -6 JR said:

Nov 3, 2014 1:16:22 GMT -6 geh3333 said:

I do agree with your statement , these engines do seem to have slight differences in performance from engine to engine . Some may have a 50 mph top end and some may have a 55 mph top end . I've even heard others claim to have a higher top end varified by gps . But from the reaction I've got " mainly by 1 person " 32mm carb with a 125 main is not possible , even though I be been running that setup for about 3 yrs . I can understand the reaction of " how in gods name are you not bogging and running like hell? " but to get a reaction of " your lying " is just ignorant . And that's why there is all of this back and fourth . I was so eager to prove it that after I installed my new variator I went on a run without tuning it in properly and then I posted it without watching it " second mistake " . the vid clearly showed a downhill run even though it looks much worse in the video . That's when I knew I wasn't tuned in properly if I was only hitting 68 on a decline . I figured I'd just get it tuned in and see how she does then instead of deleting the vid , and that's when the 73 mph vid was posted . Was it proof of a 67 mph straight run ? No it wasn't , but I know there are not any other 58.5 modded scoots that I know of that will do 73 down that hill . I was even told by others that there 61 mm bbk scoot would have a hard time hitting 73 on that decline .

When it comes down to it , I have a scoot that is burning much more fuel then many others " even with bigger bores " , and without running to rich . Do I know how it's doing this ? Not yet but hopefully soon I will . The extra air and fuel is causing my scoot to run stronger and has givin me very nice top end . Am I bragging ? No , i always only wanted others to know it's possible . However now I know it's best not to just say it's possible but to find out how I was able to pull it off and then share and encourage others to do the same .

I'll go back to one thing, I've never said you were lying. I did say the run was not flat therefore it was exaggerated, kind of like the "I went fishing and I caught........."

The problem you run into is when advising others is to remember that for whatever reason and you may never know is to tell them that there are certain things that are a given.

Will gain a little with CVT mods

Will gain a little with upjet and better air input

Will gain a little with exhaust mods

Will gain a little with better ignition system ( I have my doubts on this one but others do not)

Go above these then it's time to add more displacement but even then gains are minimal after all if one does have a standard 57mm piston going to 58.5 and even 61mm isn't very much.

Add some cam help and gain a touch more.

All adds up in the long run but here's where one draws a line in the sand. Are you racing and understand that running this engine WOT with every single mod makes it short lived or are you trying to run the scooter for dependable transportation and want the engine to last?

IMO if you are running it to depend on it then you keep the engine in the parameters that it was designed to run at. One can if they have fairly moderate terrain can fine tune minimally to hold a good highway speed of 55mph with a touch to spare and keep the engine at a lower less stressful RPM and heat range. Heat = enemy of air cooled engine for longevity.

So you asked why does your engine take the bigger carb and run fine? May not ever know. Just yesterday I was talking to Rich and as I mentioned he had two identical engines and he tried adding more fuel and air to his. The more he added the worse it ran and even today with the BBK he finally put on it for fun, he still has a stock carb upjetted slightly.

I gave him some advice on fitting his wife's scooter with sliders and this engine now even runs better especially up the hills again he just put this entire engine set up out of the cheap Bashan into his wife's more expensive Puma and the scooter will haul ass. Other than sliders it's pure stock.

What gets people into trouble when giving upgrade advice is they sometimes forget that what may be working for them very well may not for others. So many parameters can be different not only from one engine to another but we need not forget about people skills which can add one way or another to the spectrum of how something may or may not perform. You have people that are very mechanically inclined and understand things easily and know what to expect when being advised on this engine while others who buy these scooters then learn that they are expected to work on them and the scooter doesn't perform like some dealer online told them or not may not have the skills necessary to do mods in a way that is helpful and in the long run hurt the engine.

It's these people that then come back on a person who told them "this is what I did to my engine and I'm running this fast easily" that will turn on you and call you a idiot for telling them that. I've learned by being on these forums now for over 6 years to ask people one question when they ask anything about these simple scooters and it's this:

What are you trying to do with this scooter?

Lastly I stay away from mentioning things as much on what I've did or haven't done with any of my scooters like I used to. Old Dawg is full of things I tried and have done and some may or may not work for others and I'm not talking about doing things to try to milk every MPH out of the engine that I can. I've found and in this case I would advise you to be clear to people that there are things like above that are a given and beyond that they may find that their scooter is like yours and can even push the envelope more but they may yet find they will never make theirs perform as well as yours does.

BTW just for fun I mentioned that there is two things that you could still do to make this scooter run maybe as much as 3MPH faster, do you know what they are? Give you a hint, you would only do it for one run.

JR

Well I'm probably wrong but I'll throw it out there . I once noticed an increase in my mph through out all rpm ranges and that day I checked my oil level and I wasn't even readin on the dipstick ! So one way would be to run the scoot with little to no oil and after about one top speed run your engine would probably be shot , so that would account for the only one time .
Next I would say going on a run in zero degree temps would give you a possible 3 mph increase and trust me I would probably only do it once . Lol

[JR]

JR,alleyoop,geh3333

Nope.

What is take your fan blade completely off and air your tires up to 50+psi.

Now we know that we are not going to run this scooter with the fan off but here is a little more information with proven means of knowing this is so.

Since you know about HVAC you know about air movement and it's relation to HP. Now HP can be anything moving the fan, wind, electric motor or gasoline motor. When you use a electric motor with a rated CFM fan blade you can then measure the amp pull at a given RPM and know what kind of work the motor has to do to produce a rated CFM.

It's a given if you slow the motor down it will pull less amps because it's not doing as much work, the opposite occurs to a point if you speed the motor up, more CFM = more work = more amps pulled. Take the fan completely off and the motor pulls virtually nothing as far as amp load goes because it is doing no work.

The same holds true with a gasoline motor. In this case overall the Chinese have done well with a mid-range style fan that will give adequate cooling at idle, mid-range and at high speeds without completely working the engine to death. We know this fan is needed very much because scooters unlike open motorcycles cover everything up with plastic and with no fan even at high speeds the engine will melt down in the hot summer because no outside air can get to it, simple as that.

But if you remove the fan blade and some racers do then you have "decreased" the work load on the engine = more HP = more speed. You mentioned very cold weather, that would help a tad because cold air has more oxygen and with it very cold one doesn't risk burning the engine up with the fan removed.

So if you say on a cold day take and do a run on your scooter on a given spot, run it for a given distance at WOT, check the speed and then pull the fan cover back and totally remove the fan blade and make a identical run you should notice a 2 to 3 mph gain, you should even notice a slightly quicker take off and a higher rpm on the tach.

Airing the tires up hard as a brick is a no brainer, hard tire has less friction, less friction = less drag = more HP = more speed.

Now look at some myths about GY-6 fans. Here is one that makes me laugh:

.scootertronics.com/performance-fan-gy6-150.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.scootertronics.com/performance-fan-gy6-150.html

High performance fan that cools your GY-6 engine better.

.ebay.com/itm/Lime-HIGH-FLOW-COOLING-FAN-FOR-GY6-Scooter-Moped-Bike-Motor-Engine-125cc-150cc-/281130207285?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item4174aa8835&vxp=mtr" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.ebay.com/itm/Lime-HIGH-FLOW-COOLING-FAN-FOR-GY6-Scooter-Moped-Bike-Motor-Engine-125cc-150cc-/281130207285?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item4174aa8835&vxp=mtr

.ebay.com/itm/GY6-50cc-150cc-139QMB-157QMJ-High-Flow-Performance-Scooter-Turbo-Cooling-Fan-/161444018810?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item2596d03a7a&vxp=mtr" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.ebay.com/itm/GY6-50cc-150cc-139QMB-157QMJ-High-Flow-Performance-Scooter-Turbo-Cooling-Fan-/161444018810?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item2596d03a7a&vxp=mtr

.ebay.com/itm/COOLING-FAN-FOR-SCOOTERS-ATVS-AND-KARTS-WITH-GY6-MOTORS-150cc-MOTORS-/171051739075?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item27d37a67c3&vxp=mtr" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">.ebay.com/itm/COOLING-FAN-FOR-SCOOTERS-ATVS-AND-KARTS-WITH-GY6-MOTORS-150cc-MOTORS-/171051739075?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item27d37a67c3&vxp=mtr

First thing to note is the last or bottom fan is a plain jane standard gy-6 fan that comes on 99% of 125 and 1250cc GY-6 engines. If you count it has 18 blades.

First or top fan blade, remember it's "high performance" Blade count = 18 but it is pretty.

Second fan bade same thing "high performance" = what? You guessed it 18 blades and the green is ugly.

Third fan blade is high performance and only how many blades? 12 total so how is it high performance? By looking at it also it seems the blades are not as tall in height? This fan is where people get really ripped off, why? Most people who look at this don't understand that when they say high performance they are saying speed and not better cooling. Know how many people have bought one of these thinking the latter? Lot's even some have melted down a engine but man it's has higher performance! Damn right back to the less work = more HP = more speed but it'll let your engine melt down on a 95F plus day going down the road too.

All of the above are gimmicks and a way to make extra money on people who don't know or take the time to look at all this nonsense.

JR