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Post by JR on Jun 24, 2014 19:19:28 GMT -6
Good to see you Damin, been busy myself.
JR
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 24, 2014 19:17:11 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 24, 2014 19:17:11 GMT -6
So your bailing out!! I always say MORE HEADS ARE BETTER THAN ONE, NOBODY and I MEAN NOBODY knows everything and others may spot something and or suggest something that may trigger someone's brain and a LIGHT COMES ON. Alleyoop I don't recall every saying that I knew everything but I do know this, since there was plenty of help here I went about my day.
I started at 5 a.m. fed the animals, plowed for two hours and planted 2 rows of corn, two rows of peas, one row of butterbeans, picked the green beans and just pulled the 65th jar of can green beans from the canner. Also made 12 pints of plum jelly.
Speaking of beer, it's that time, glad the scooter is fixed.
JR
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 24, 2014 6:59:55 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 24, 2014 6:59:55 GMT -6
Ok Jr, I did some more looking out my old cdi box and here is the part # xy170mm cdi. So that would mean that mine is definitely a cdi setup right? Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk I'm sorry but I'm bowing out of this one. The last things that are stated here make no sense? You just stated you have a 12V power source to the coil and "if" it has 3 wires which I'm not sure because of no picture then by both of you guys assumptions you have a TCI type coil just like in the photo you posted Alley:
The above is a correct diagram of a TCI coil. Now you're coming back and saying you have a CDI? Simply put you can't and do not put a CDI with a TCI coil, it's apples and oranges.
So which is correct? Do you really have a TCI type coil or a CDI type, a TCI ignition module or a CDI module? Beats me?
Lastly when all this started you replaced a carb and somehow mysteriously the entire ignition system just failed at the same time? You've replaced every single thing including the stator which has nothing to do with the firing system other than the pulse coil which you could have replaced alone by itself should it have been bad. You also mentioned you yourself believe it's a wiring issue yet you haven't performed one wire test of any of the wiring (or at least you haven't said so) to see if you have a bad wire. By testing I mean using the ohm setting on a meter and checking each wire of the ignition system for continuity. You've got the scooter stripped and this would be extremely easy. Instead you have just bought and thrown parts at it and don't even know if you bought the right parts and not sure of what your system is? If it's a bad wire you now have a good supply of parts you don't need even if they are wrong.
Too many cooks in the kitchen, and speaking of kitchen I have green beans to can and plum jelly to make and not a lot of time. Good luck.
JR
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 23, 2014 5:13:32 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 23, 2014 5:13:32 GMT -6
I'm gonna repost what the coil is doing again, OK brown w/ black wire - key off grounded, key on or turning over 9.7v Yellow w/black - key off ground key on 1.3 volts or turning over engine. That's with meter instead of test light. Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
You do not have a CDI but rather a TCI and you also do not have a meter that can read the output voltage of a TCI.
To be exact TCI uses transistor switches to disconnect the coils. This causes a charged coil to collapse and "fire" the spark. This is known as "Kettering" or
"Induction" effect. So, in the VISION the coils are powered up all the time except while "collapsing" into spark. The VISION coils are constantly powered up
at 12+ volts but the "induction" energy stored in the coils secondary core is about 20,000volts.
Black/white with key on is 12Vdc+ and I would highly advise you not to try to test the output going to the spark plug at any time. Even if it is only putting out 50% which is not enough for the plug to fire 10k volts can kill.
To test a TCI:
Put spark plug in and ground it out to engine case.
Set Run/Stop switch to STOP. Then turn ignition key to ON.
Every time you turn the Run/Stop switch from OFF to --> ON you should see
a single spark about 2 seconds after power-ON.
If you do not see this spark then you have a bad TCI or wiring is bad.
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 22, 2014 20:29:44 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 22, 2014 20:29:44 GMT -6
Jr I mean no disrespect to anyone for that matter, but when we keep going round and round about something that is just a freak incident then we're gonna get no where. Now that being said I'm telling you guys I did not unhook or knock anything loose on this thing other than the plug wire. Unless I'm totally blind after I don't know how many days of looking then I did it I'm guilty. Now, I know that if after all these parts I replaced and still nothing than its definitely in the wiring. But we're spending more time on saying things like, I quote,, (I'm telling you that you hit something or knocked something loose.) Ok, if this were true don't you think we should try and pin point the problem? A few post back we were checking the ac voltage on the pickup and we kind of left it at that. You guys said that it should read 0.5 to 2.5 mine read 0.353 at the harness and 0.253 at the cdi harness. Now to me that's off correct me if I'm wrong but we left it at that to argue about what everyone thinks I knocked loose. So one more time,, I appreciate all help that's why I'm here. I'm tired of bickering. So if you still want to help than thank you let's get this fixed. If not it's all good and thanks for going this far w/me. Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk Troubleshooting is a process of elimination, test this, replace that. I gave you a list of possible items
Bad parts Wrong parts Bad wiring Broke wiring Shorted wiring
Now like anyone on what has or has not happened I'm not bickering and I'm making suggestions, if you don't like my suggestions or think I'm wrong no problem but I'm also applying common sense, scooter running, replaced carb, scooter not running, carb has NOTHING to do with ignition system, ignition system wiring runs by carb area and can be disturbed accidently when working on it. Whether you did or didn't doesn't matter it was a viable and reasonable suggestion, IT HAS happened to many including myself.
I have a 250A (wifes) that I replaced the horn on this winter, road the scooter the other day and temp gauge, gas gauge and tach are dead, hit a bump in the road and it'll work. I KNOW that the black wire that feeds them from the key switch is loose not only do I know that I'm going to get to take the whole damn front off of this scooter to fix it, didn't mess with any wiring except the horn, but it wasn't that way before I replaced the horn.
You have a meter, YOU need to start pin pointing the problem a wire at a time, done replaced everything else and this is what you should have done to start with instead of just throwing parts at it. You've asked for and been sent a "correct" wiring diagram 3 times, use it.
Good enough for a TCI and since you replaced this before you checked the old one, you might as well swap the old one back and see if it's any better? |
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 22, 2014 20:11:03 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 22, 2014 20:11:03 GMT -6
One more thing, if I had a good wiring diagram I could probably tell everyone what wire is doing what but all I find is just color code schematics nothing with it telling me what wite is ground and what is 12v. Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk .thescooterprofessor.proboards.com/thread/490/260-vog-wiring-diagram" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> .thescooterprofessor.proboards.com/thread/490/260-vog-wiring-diagram
I'm going to send this link to you one more time, it has two VOG wiring diagrams that when you click on either one you can see, they are correct and have the color codes on them. Now it may be your phone thing because, you don't have a computer, don't know but don't mention not having a good wiring diagram again, this is a good one and it's now been sent to you 3 times.
Every single wire in the picture you posted of your TCI matches the diagram to the letter.
Transistor Controlled Ignition ( TCI ) TCI box exists to eliminate moving parts (breaker points and advance mechanism).
TCI ignitions are functionally the same as old vehicles with breaker points. It is just a modernized, solid state(transistors taking the place of the points and a logic chip replacing advance weights and cam) 'Kettering type' ignition.
The coils have full time (keyed) battery voltage to them. The pickup coil by the flywheel 'feels' the trigger bump go by and sends a signal to the TCI box. The TCI looks at RPM (using the frequency of the pickup coil's signal) and determines whether or not to advance the spark timing based on a pre-programmed curve in the logic chip. At idle, it is using the static advance that is determined by the flywheel key. When spark is needed, The TCI interrupts the batt+ to the coils and this causes the field in the coil to collapse. This, in turn, induces the secondary windings to dump and fire the plugs.
The logic chip in the TCI has only ONE variable to look at, and that is RPM as reported by the (single) pickup coil. There is NO throttle position sensor, NO gear position sensor, NO road speed sensor, NO ambient air sensor. It is what is known as 'single map, open loop' logic. The advance curve is the same whether you are revving to limiter in neutral, or you are in second gear dragracing uphill-which means a compromise has been made somewhere. The compromise was made toward the cleaner emissions end of the scale. This is WHY advancing the ignition with an offset woodruff key, or slotting the pickup coil gives immediate results.
CDI stands for Capacitor Discharge Ignition CDI works almost just the opposite as TCI. CDI ignition coils sit there, with NO voltage in the primary circuit, until the CDI sends a pulse of hundreds of volts through the primary to ground. That 200+ volts induces the secondary windings to dump and fire the plug.
BUT, a CDI also has a set of condensers, which take the Batt+ and store charge, rapidly building to hundreds of volts. When the pickup coil sends a signal, the CDI's logic says 'when' and it dumps that charge of hundreds of volts through the coil's primary windings. CDI's have very high spark voltage compared to TCI, but CDI also has a very short spark duration.
CDI powered coils also can be used in higher rev situations because the coil isn't dependent on time to build up inductance in the secondary coils, it is amplitude dependent. CDI therefore offers consistent spark voltages as high as you want to rev.
TCI powered ignitions are dependent on time. The coil needs a minimum time to saturate to build full power in the secondary windings. TCI ignition spark voltages fall with revs after a certain point.
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 21:04:02 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 21:04:02 GMT -6
Geesss guys you guys are tearing me apart like I'm some complete idiot.. I thought this site was to help others not try to find things to knock on people... Thanks Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk Whoa hold on a minute! Helping is for sure what we are trying to do. I'm not a idiot either and when I said wires were compromised when "you" took out the carb I still stand by that. Does it make any sense that it was running "electrically" before you removed the carb and now it doesn't? Chances for an electrical failure of a part just because a non-electrical item was removed are very slim.
Now you said you've replaced the kitchen sink as far as all components of the firing system and still have no spark, so you either:
Bought the wrong parts Installed them wrong Got bad parts Or have a not on purpose wiring issue that was created on removing the carb.
Don't think I missed anything here.
Now I'll repeat this statement of yours:
I posted has matched the color wires to your system to the letter so if you trace out the coil wire/TCI wiring you'll see this is wrong and if you do know the basics of electrical you'll understand by this diagram that the system has a short in it. It's either wires shorted together or a internal part internally shorted, could be the coil itself?
The coil with the key on should have 12Vdc only on the voltage feed wire to it and not both terminals.
JR
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 14:43:52 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 14:43:52 GMT -6
BTW the top photo has a "green" wire hanging out, in the photo it looks cut, green = ground.
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 14:39:31 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 14:39:31 GMT -6
Didn't say you crossed anything trying to. When you say you checked everything in your picture of the coil, the harness under it looks tied down with the original ties and undisturbed. Have you took "all" wires out of the harness from the coil all the way to the front of the scooter where the TCI is located? Completely out of the harness? If you haven't then again if your coil readings are what you say they are you have a direct short on the coil. Remember I can only go by what you say and Alley the photos he sent are now there big as a barn, click twice to look.
Harness = plastic tubing that the wires are in, again the Chinese make splices all the time especially in the wrapping and you will never see them without taking the tubing/wrapping off. |
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 14:25:29 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 14:25:29 GMT -6
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 14:20:02 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 14:20:02 GMT -6
Go back and look at his photos, coil is within hands reach of where he took the carb off, TCI is at the front of the scooter and the wires run from it back towards the engine. Easy to see and the colors are easy to see on the TCI Even with my bi-focals I can see that!  Easy to see the harness wrapping at the bottom of the coil. Easy to know, scooter running, took carb off, no fire, wiring compromised simple as that. |
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 14:15:38 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 14:15:38 GMT -6
That's a fuel system layout that you posted Jr. Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk Either your phone is haywire or you don't know how to reads a wiring diagram? That's the complete wiring system for a VOG. |
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 14:14:34 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 14:14:34 GMT -6
Ok need some pictures of the CDI, COIL, CARB area any wires under there that would be around the carb area. Check your PM for my email address and I will put the pictures up for you. Alleyoop Read last post, this wiring system if what he says about the coil readings is so means one thing, short that was caused by moving carb/wiring around if what he says about his coil reading s are true. |
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 14:12:35 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 14:12:35 GMT -6
Look at last 2 post Jr I had to edit it Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk Doesn't mean squat. In your picture:
The coil is within hands reach of the carb. The harness is running from that area at the bottom to the front of the scooter where your TCI and other components are, as it runs to the back also. This is Chinese, meaning connections are hidden in this harness and the ground wires plus the feed from your TCI that runs to the front is in there too. So if it's like you say on the coil readings as I said before they are crossed and that's why the coil is getting hot. Coil has to have a hot wire and ground, if the key is on and both are hot then you are sending 12Vdc to the coil on both sides and you're going to burn it up if you haven't already.
So if you have the theory of I didn't bother those things when I took the carb off and again what you say about the coil readings is so then you for sure did disturb the wiring, running before you took carb off and now it's not, this isn't crazy any more.
So you need to find where the ground and black/brown are crossed and until you do this scooter isn't going to run again. Fuses blow when wires are crossed.
Key off ground on both sides, key on hot on both sides = short.
JR
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No fire
by: JR - Jun 20, 2014 13:21:24 GMT -6
Post by JR on Jun 20, 2014 13:21:24 GMT -6
Ok here's what my coil is doing, both sides of coil have ground w/key off when key is on both sides have power. Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk Both sides? You have a 12Vdc wire, a ground and a feed from the TCI. So are you saying the green and black/brown are both hot with key on and both are grounded with key off? If so then you have those two color wires crossed, it's that simple. Again something in this harness went nuts when you pulled the carb.
JR
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