starting issue, electrical or fuel delivery... By rockville9 (Read 1,617 times)

[rockville9]

Not going to be a short post...

Problem started last year, when my scoot developed starting probs in the AM.  I had to resort to kick-starting, as the ignition didn't want to crank the engine.  I was extremely ignorant way, way back then (8 months ago...), and just figured that I'd need a new carb, and we'd all be good.  Winter came, can't ride.  Scoot sits...fast forward, March, 2014...

Scoot had been sitting all winter.  Replaced carb, as the carb was the only part of the engine I could identify.  Nada.  Borrowed my neighbor's battery charger.  Only got about 40%.  Replaced battery.  Nope.  No start.

Meanwhile, besides the starting issue, the 6mm exhaust stud had blown out the summer before, and exhaust fumes & noise were shooting out by my left foot.  Couldn't get the post threaded, so I took the thing apart; removed the valve cover & cylinder head, re-tapped the exhaust studs (never had done this before) to 8mm, and put it all back together.  Started it up.  Bad.  I wound up replacing the camshaft in "any old position" vs. TDC.  Busted valves.  Order new cylinder head.  Repeat tear-down.  Re-tap new cylinder head with 8mm threads, so the gremlin wouldn't come back.  Learn about TDC.  

During time while engine is in pieces in my garage, I order a starter motor, as I know what that part now looks like, and it's not all that hard to replace, so another $30, and new starter arrives.  Replace.  Click ignition.  All I hear is some "click" in what I find out is the CDI.  Replace CDI.  Not good news.

Learn about this "jump the solinoid" technique.  Try.  Sparks everywhere, scares the crap out of me.  Starter turns, but won't turn the engine over.  Every couple of efforts, I would hear one of the "putt - putt" of the engine trying to fire.  Sort of like a lawnmower that doesn't want to run...Most of this time, the battery is connected to my very understanding neighbor's battery charger.  Yes, I know how to properly hook this up.  Pos to Pos, Neg to Neg...at least I think I know how to hook it up.  Anyway...

Learn about "ignition coil".  Order new coil + lead + spark plug boot.  Oh, I've already replaced the spark plug.

So, I get everything back together (before ordering the coil), manage to get the baby started.  Clicked engine start button.  Get it going.  Hurray, all is well in the world!!!  Let run for 10 min.  Fiddle with the idle so that i get it to the point right where the engine is about to die, give it a 1/4 turn the opposite way, and shut it down.  Thinking I'm a genius, grab some beer.  Drink beer (does not add to story...)

Come back out an hour later after the engine cooled off.  Click.  No start.  Starter wont' crank.  Jumping solinoid cranks the starter, occasional "putt - putt" noise from around the piston / cylinder.  I've now removed the solioid & ignition coil, and ordered new parts.  I've ordered a new starter button on the right handle.  The scoot's kill switch is not even connected.  The 3 wire plug doesn't have any wires running to it.  Never did.  Last summer, when the electric start worked, kill switch never was an issue.  Like I said, no wires even running to it...

So, to summarize...I got it started, very recently.  The brake lights & headlights go on when I turn the key, but the start just "clicks".  I have a new starter button / clicker on order.  

What else could possibly be going wrong???

Please help.  Wife not pleased with all these new parts coming in every few days.  Neighbor is impressed with my determination.  Neighbor's wife thinks I'm a bit screwy...

[alleyoop]

Well the CLICK CLICK is your SOLENIOD.
Here is how it works. You probably bought stuff you did not need and are not bad.
The SOLENOID is just a RELAY to send 12 volts to the starter that is all that it does.
Now when you squeeze the brakes it sends voltage to the solenoid and then when you push the start button it GROUNDS the solenoid to complete the circuit. INTERNALLY it has a contact that TOUCHS BOTH TERMINALS to pass the 12 volts from the battery to the Starter(INTERNALLY IT DOES THE SAME THING AS WHEN YOU JUMP THE 2 TERMINALS FROM THE OUTSIDE). So if it clicks it is bad (IF when you jump the terminals on it IT DOES SPIN YOUR STARTER).
Alleyoop

[rockville9]

I have a new solenoid on order from scrappydogs. should be arriving any day now. i get what you are saying, the fact that when i jump the solenoid, the starter cranks, i have power & a complete circuit. if, the jumping DIDN'T crank the starter, there would be some other electrical prob, something like a grounding issue. Ok. i'll still replace my new ignition coil.

looking down the road, i have not done the "fuel mixture" set up, which has something to do with a screw on the left side of the carb. i have a feeling that i'm not all there and i have a lean or rich mix, which is also contributing to my starting probs.

one question. scoots don't have an alternator, right? how does the battery charge while the engine is running? does the battery charge off the engine? thanks for your input.

[alleyoop]

The scooters have a STATOR and a FLYWHEEL with magnets on the muffler side you will see a FAN attached to the flywheel. As the motor is running the Flywheel which is attached to the Crank spins and the magnets go around the STATOR and creates electricity, it creates AC electricity. Some of the wires are plugged into a REGULATOR/RECTIFIER which in turn takes the AC voltage and converts it to DC voltage and one wire coming out of it goes to the Battery to Charge it. Some of the other wires go to your lights which also needs DC voltage to light. So if it is not charging it could be either the Stator or Regulator/Rectifier.
Alleyoop

[rockville9]

HOLY CRAP!  Let's hope that i don't have this problem...

[alleyoop]

If your battery is good the SOLENOID should fix your CLICK CLICK problem and spin the starter.

But id the battery is not being charged It is usually the Regulator/Rectifier that goes bad, the Stator not so much. And Regulator/Rectifier is plug and play and are not expensive you just have to match what you have because they are so many different types for the different scoots.
Alleyoop

[rockville9]

thank you very much for your input so far. my new solinoid arrived yesterday, so it will be plugged in this afternoon.

we'll see...

happy 4th of july. make sure you have all 10 fingers come monday...

[rockville9]

I replaced the ignition coil.  The solenoid was bad, and has been replaced.  The starter cranks every time the ignition gets engaged.  There is compression in the cylinder, I can feel it push out the spark plug hole.  


However, when I take the plug out and turn the engine, there is no spark.  I replaced the terminals that connect to the ignition coil, but that didn't really seem to do anything.  I can get a new spark plug at the auto parts store, but what else can I do to get spark?  I have a new CDI and it's hooked up correctly.  

Thoughts???

[alleyoop]

Did you connect the right wires to the right terminals on the COIL, one is a ground and the other is the LIVE WIRE from the CDI. Also is the KILLSWITCH on the RUN POSITION otherwise no spark.
Alleyoop

[rockville9]

when i get home today, i'll post some pictures of the connections.  The ignition coil I bought from Scrappydog had green & black terminals, and I connected the green wire to the green terminal.  The other wire was black & yellow, and that got connected to the black terminal.  

When I installed the new female lead, I obviously had to strip the wires down, and noticed that they were really thin, coiled copper wire.  I'm wondering if I don't have to rewire with thicker copper?  New terminals & leads are cheap, and I can get solid wire at the hardware store by the foot.  Should I just re-wire the whole thing???

My scoot never had the kill switch wired.  I've taken the dash-cover off & the terminals for the kill are not connected.  There isn't a lead going up that way even.  The right side of the handlebars only has one lead, the ignition.

[rockville9]

below are the CDI & ignition coil.  The 1st coil picture is a little blurry, but shows the green wire connected to the green terminal.  I wrapped the whole assembly in electric tape, so the connections aren't really shown.

Let me know what else I can show you.  You've been a great help so far.  I really appreciate it.  Thanks.

Attachments:

[alleyoop]

Try switching the wires on the COIL, GREEN TO BLACK terminal on the coil and the YELLOW/BLACK to the GREEN TERMINAL and see if the spark plug fires.
Alleyoop

[rockville9]

I got it started and adjusted the fuel mixture like one of the other posts said to.

Having hard time starting cold. Is there something I can do to the choke? Once it's warm, engine runs fine.

Thanks for your help. I'm almost there...

[alleyoop]

Check the ENRICHER that is easy to do, Before starting the motor take it off and lay it on its side where you can watch it. THEN cover the hole with your thumb and start the motor and keep your thumb on the hole for at least 3-5 mintues.
Now when you first take it off and lay it on it's side it should look like #1 pic (IF NOT THAT IS YOUR COLD STARTING PROBLEM NOT ENOUGH FUEL).

As the your holding the thumb over the hole and the motor is warming up it should the plunger should start to EXTEND OUT and within 3-5 minutes it should be extended out about 1/4 of an inch pic #2.
Alleyoop

PIC #1:
RETRACTED COLD:


PIC #@:
EXTENDED WARM:

[turner505]

Thank You alleyoop for the education. I have one scooter apart cleaning varnished gas and another that starts, sometimes, and when it does it runs at rough idle and leaps forward with even light throttle. You've given me many things to check.
Thanks Again, I may be back
Houston